Ep 15: Beyond Fiduciary featuring George Kinder (Ep.15)

Episode 15 of Rethink Financial Advice, co-hosted by Derek Notman, CFP® (Founder & CEO, Couplr AI) and H. Adam Holt, CFP® (Founder & CEO, Asset-Map). (34:44)

Episode 15 of Rethink Financial Advice, co-hosted by Derek Notman, CFP® (Founder & CEO, Couplr AI) and H. Adam Holt, CFP® (Founder & CEO, Asset-Map). Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or Acast.

Episode Summary

George Kinder joins Adam Holt and Derek Notman to argue that the fiduciary conversation has been framed too narrowly. Kinder, widely regarded as the originator of life planning and founder of the Kinder Institute, treats fiduciary duty as a practice discipline rather than a compliance category, and that distinction shapes the whole conversation. His method is unusually concrete. He describes spending the first ninety minutes to two hours with a client doing almost nothing but listening and probing for what actually drives them, before any number enters the room. Holt connects this to a habit he sees in most advisors, which is filling silence with demonstrations of expertise the client never asked for, when what the client wants is confirmation of having been heard. Kinder, who has practiced for roughly fifty years, also discusses building a practice around his own life plan.

What this episode covers

• Fiduciary duty treated as a practice discipline rather than a regulatory category
• Kinder’s opening process, and why the first ninety minutes contain no numbers
• Why advisors over-talk, and what clients are actually listening for
• Qualitative discovery questions that go past date of birth and account balances
• What it looks like when an advisor designs a practice around their own life plan

Full Transcript

Machine-generated transcript of this episode.

Welcome to Rethink, the financial advisor podcast. My name is Adam Holtz. And this is Derek Notman. We are your hosts, both veteran advisors and fintech CEOs who challenge the status quo, question everything and have fun doing it. Hear honest commentary on the challenges facing advisors today and be part of a community where we can all rethink the profession. Now on to our episode. So I’ve got a question for you. What does fiduciary really mean? I don’t know. Well, I think I know, but I know that a lot of advisors are talking about it or wondering about what it means for them. And clearly there’s been this movement of late, probably motivated a lot by regulation, right?

Best interest DOL coming back. Fiduciary is top of mind. What’s on your mind about fiduciary? Why it almost feels like it’s, it’s a two things. Like you’ve got this legal regulatory, let’s not call it a cloud because I think there’s a lot of good that can come from this, but there’s this, there’s this environment there. But then we’ve also got this like mindset of what a fiduciary is and how we define that as advisors in our daily practices. It’s super important. It’s top of mind that clients prospects are searching for more and more. So we know it’s not just on the advisor’s minds, but it’s on the consumer’s minds.

But I think why don’t we ask somebody else? You know, who would be great to ask the father of life planning would understand this best. Do you know George Kinder? Yeah, he is legend, right? You know, he’s well, yeah, he’s just super awesome. And I think he’d be perfect to talk to about this. Well, it is true. You guys already know this. We got a chance to talk to George Kinder from his house in Hawaii, where he’s built a lifestyle. And as what’s considered effectively the father of life planning, taking financial planning and thinking the next step. How do you actually help clients achieve their life streams, their freedoms?

He’s very well known literally around the world for his work at the Kinder Institute. And we got the opportunity to talk to George Kinder who, if you don’t know him, he’s a, he’s a thought leader. He’s an author. He’s written a bazillion books. I don’t know how many actual books he’s written, but enough more than me and you. Right? Yes. Come by. Teach his mindfulness before it was cool. You know, one of the things that I picked up in our conversation, which we’re going to share with everybody here, because it’s really cool to spend some intimate time with a, with a thought leader of this magnitude because it was, you start to see and hear something really different.

So I want everybody to listen to what George has to say here. We had to actually compress this because we got so many nuggets from him that we were, we, we basically got this to about 15 minutes. So we’re going to share some of the conversation that we had, but one thing I picked up, I don’t know if you heard it, Derek, is that it’s really, it’s really clear to me. If you’ve ever experienced one of George’s books or how he’s talks, you can tell he’s really thinking at a deeper level, right? He’s actively listening and he’s helping his audience get to the place that they need to, almost like he knows where they’re going, right?

Like he knows what the plan is, but he, he almost brings you along. I don’t want to say like my grandfather, but he kind of like knows the end of the story, but he lets you have your own journey. And the fact that he’s actually been able to do this for clients really helps the clients own their problems and then own their solutions. And he’s advocating and facilitating it because he does what he asks great questions. I think you’re going to, you’re going to experience this to a degree. And if you’ve done any of his reading, you’re going to, you’re going to find that out.

So I’m looking forward to it. It’s a real treat. Let’s, let’s jump in and hear what this gentleman has to say. Well, we started out by asking him, you know, what are you working on these days? Here’s what, here’s what George had to say. So I’ve got like five books coming out that are a mix intermingling of poetry and photography that are tell stories and they’re dynamic. We’re putting them online. We’re doing subscription basis for them. They’re my, they’re kind of my life plan. So from that standpoint, I’m doing that, but I’m also writing, I’m finishing up a couple of books on freedom because really ultimately money and what we stand for of life planning is all about freedom.

So I’m completing a couple of books, just kind of simplifying that understanding for people. What does freedom mean? How do you get there? Yeah, that’s amazing. That’s really amazing. So, you know, most of us know you and your career as having touched thousands of lives advisors. And of course the clients that they help every day talking about life planning, financial planning, and of course wellness at a whole new level. So, you know, give us an idea of what’s your unique perspective of the financial advice market now. Well, I mean, I was told coming in here when I talk to you guys to be controversial, so I’m going to be controversial and just simply say that the advice market should be, and it’s not fiduciary all the way across and much broader than how we thought about it when we’re talking about what should happen in the department of labor and all this kind of stuff.

It should, clients come first and that should be a no brainer. And absolutely the clients should know I can trust this guy or this lady. I can trust this person because I know they place me first. So the financial advice industry has to move in that direction if we want to earn the trust of the people. And then the second thing I would say that I’ll come back to at the end here is in a much larger context of fiduciary that the industry itself should be fiduciary for all of our values. And we’re not, we need to move in that direction. I think we are, but we need to move in that direction.

That’s great. So that’s great. So take it further for us though. So what does that mean? Paint us a picture of what that means for the existing financial advisor community. How will we know when our advisors are actually looking out for the best interests of our customers? The metrics will be that clients will leave you and that’ll be significant all the way across the board. The second metric that’s even more significant is they’ll be referring people after the very first meeting. So you will, and third, they’ll bring in all their money. If they’re bringing in just some of their money, they’re going to bring it all in because they trust you.

So when you place the client’s interests first, they know it. They’ll know that in the first meeting because you’re shifting from an orientation of, I’m going to give you financial advice and I’m going to advise about this product and this way of doing things and this budget over here. What are you looking for in retirement? No, you place them first. Why are you here? And then you pause. And if they start talking about assets, you go, no, no, no, no, no. If we work for a long time together, what do you want? What do you want to have happen? And so the meeting becomes their meeting.

And if you do it well, if you’re connected emotionally, like with empathic listening, with emotional intelligence, and you’re connected around the slightest hint of aspiration on their side, you go, wow, that would be so cool. When you are connected with the client, they’re going to start just unraveling and sharing everything. I had a principle that in the first hour and a half, my first meetings were two hours typically. First hour and a half, I don’t talk. It’s 90% the client. And then how do you get them to bring that out? And then the other thing is you know it because you’re delivering the client into their dream of freedom and you’re doing it in very short order.

Like you’re giving them such a rich taste of it that they know it within a year to three years. Often they know it at the end of the first meeting or two. You’ve nailed something to them and they are so excited, but it’s exciting about them, not about you. So that was really interesting. I mean, he dropped so many nuggets, Derek, dream of freedom, life plan. What grabbed you there? All of it. I recommend that you go back and listen to that again because it’s just brilliant. What our listeners can’t see is that as we had this conversation with George, you could see how happy he was in having the conversation and just saying these things.

He is so passionate about this and he clearly lives it all the time. But it’s all about listening and advice and truly tapping into your client’s actual drivers. Sure, we want to make money. Like what’s my rate of return going to be this quarter? Blah, blah, blah. That’s great. But go so much deeper is what he’s saying and then listen. Like what is your life plan? Like how are you going to be free? What is that to you? And some of the stuff can feel touchy feely, but man, like this is what it’s all about. This is what our jobs are is to help people figure this stuff out.

Boy, I agree with you too. I mean, he talks about trust. He talks about his own life plan. His life plan, his vision of his aspiration of what he wants to do his life is to do art, poetry, painting, photography. And it’s really kind of interesting. He’s really living what he’s teaching and been an advisor for some 50 years. So not when it was cool to be empathetic. What’s really funny, I think to me about this is that we tend to, we get asked so many times about, well, what kind of tools should you use in the financial planning and what kind of tech and what do you use?

The cashflow burned down or do you use the budgeting tools? Did you like the Monte Carlo? So tactical. Like what? Hello? No, why? Well, I think there’s a growing voice about this. It’s funny because some of, you know, I was listening to Kitsis Carl recently, their podcast and how, you know, they were talking about life planning and you start, you start to hear a lot of people advisors are specifically focusing on how they’re going to differentiate going forward in the kind of coaching world of being more of a holistic advocate, if you will. So I really think what he’s, what he’s talking about, this, this kind of idea, dream of freedom, really focus on, can we spend our first meeting, not just doing fact finding and analysis, but can we do aspirational?

Can we talk about, put yourself in your shoes when you are in this future state of desire, whether it’s retirement or early retirement, or what is it? What would real meaning be to you? Right. Can you, can you uncover that from the client? Cause if we understand their why, the tactics will figure out, right? Everything else is going to be fine. Honestly, most clients aren’t going to care so much about the tactics. They want to know that you, you know, their why and you’re helping them get it. Yeah. Let’s hear more from George. This ties into like our whole leading with advice thing that Adam and I’ve been talking with for a while and how you’re, you’re spot on.

Like there’s this touchy feely side to the relationships we have with our clients and all too often it’s the commission. It’s the product that just totally marginalizes the human being. And it’s totally backwards. All the other stuff will happen if you just treat them like a human being and listen. Right. So I love hearing you say that it resonates a whole bunch. I mean, you become somebody incredibly special for the client. It’s not about the product. It’s not about the spreadsheet. It’s not about your tax strategies. It’s because you have really connected with them around who they really want to be and you’re on their side around it.

You know, that’s true. I mean, look, he’s reiterating effectively what we’ve said and what, you know, what we’ve said for years, I guess individually, and now we’ll be talking about on the podcast, but we wanted to ask him, you know, what is the missing opportunity that advisors are not capturing from this, this kind of big picture? I think it’s, it’s mostly, you know, it’s around all of this and it’s really about relationship. I mean, it’s so obvious it’s been there all along and we’ve known it in some way, but we don’t see it. And we think relationship is playing a golf game, taking them to our favorite restaurant.

You know, you know, one of the things George, this was one of the best conversations I’ve ever had. End of the first meeting. And I’m going, you know, there’s a, you know, a grin on, you know, I’m trying to stifle this grin on my face because I know it wasn’t a conversation. I just listened. And where they said something, they were excited about it. And when they said something they were really concerned about say, Oh no. Oh, no. You know, I just shared with them. I stayed toe to toe with their emotional life, letting them know that I care and that I was there for them.

So it’s the relationship piece. Trust has been the big issue forever in financial services. You don’t build trust by actually delivering a portfolio that that’s secondary. Or completing a fact finder. Putting it all in the fact finder. You know, it’s a relationship, stupid, you know, that’s great. So, so it’s, but, and, and that relationship is both listening. And then the second meeting, we do something where we really inspire the client, where we move them into, we’ve caught those hints of inspiration. We give them questions to wrestle with. They come in and we go, we filter through to what is the deepest and most exciting thing they could possibly be doing with their life.

And then we go, let’s do it. Let’s make it happen. It’s great. I hear trust. I hear meaning. I hear purpose. I hear listening. Well, yeah, I mean, and these things we claim to be so basic at, right? But it’s true. I don’t know that, of course, here we are on a podcast bantering about us doing all this talking, but I think that’s really important. So I’m curious, you know, with all the work that you’ve been doing in helping lift advisors, helping them become more empathetic, what are some clear action steps that advisors can take to further that experience for customers today? Well, I think you nailed it a moment ago when you said listening.

Were we ever taught listening skills? And, you know, you guys talk about financial advice. Well, where’s the listening? You know, I mean, because that kind of implies that we’re kind of laying it all on the person in some way. Listening skills would be the first thing I’d say, Adam. I’d say you can get them in a number of different ways. We love what we offer, and I’ll share that in a moment. But, you know, you can get listening skills by taking a course in counseling. You know, I don’t believe in therapy. I mean, therapy is good for people, but I don’t believe in it as a financial advisor.

I believe in listening and then delivering people into their dream of freedom. But that listening skill echoes what a great therapist will do. They We are field, as you know, is called life planning. We have a designation called registered life planner, and we teach listening skills as a way of developing. How do you become a life planner? And we teach something that we call the pause, where we give space. And at first, it feels a little uncomfortable, but, you know, you just learn it, you can do it. So we teach emotional intelligence and listening skills. And that would be the first thing. And then the second thing I would say, I mean, life planning is a good thing to learn.

And those would be the things I’d probably emphasize more than anything. I love that. I wish more of the large financial institutions would add that to their training programs. It’s not just like, hey, here’s how this product works. Here’s how you cold call. Here’s a script. What happened to listening, right? What happened to that whole human element that’s kind of important. Your reward becomes more and more from seeing your clients deliver into their life something really extraordinary, something special, make something out of their life. That’s amazing. And you realize my listening helped make that happen. That feels better than any compensation. As a quick example, I had a client come to happy tears just last week, you know, because, you know, for the work that we did and like almost giving her permission, like, Hey, it’s okay.

We plan for this. Don’t go do it. You know, and it’s just, that is worth more than anything else. That’s it right there. That’s the essence. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It’s true. And by the way, I’m purposely listening just to make sure that I don’t, because I have a habit of talking too much. So I’m practicing what I’m learning from you right now. Just, you know, you know, one of the things about that, Adam, you know, is that we’re all and I could see you guys. I mean, you’re very engaged. You’re very engaging. And, and the best of us, I think are, but we can hold our fire.

There’s going to be plenty of time for us to be engaging. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And they’ve come to us for a reason. So we can hold our fire and allow them to feel ownership. It does take a sense of confidence though, to, to, to choose not to always fill the space with, look how much knowledge I have that I am worthy of providing and getting paid for. Right. I think that there’s an interesting challenge for most financial advisors, which is we believe that we’re selling continuously selling not only our products and services, but the fact that we’re worthy of being the potential to drive this car with you or to guide you at least on where to go.

Right. Because, because there’s plenty of competition these days, right? Direct to consumer robo, you know, 15 other people that have cold called you that would rather manager funds for a fraction of the cost. Right. So there’s all kinds of different competitions today. So I think advisors generally tend to have, if they’re talking too much and not listening, they’re not necessarily, they’re trying to deliver on value that wasn’t asked for. Right. When really what customers want to know is they are heard. You need confirmation that you actually listened, not just that you listen, but I would even argue that you actually have to prove that you heard them and then give it back in a concise and consumable way.

Absolutely. And that’s part of the training and in good, great listening skills. And what you’re saying is you, you know, you have a person who’s a marquee right here sharing all their skills and their talents and their degrees and all this stuff and what they’ve accomplished and their products at all. And you have someone over here who just listens in that first meeting and really, and, and connects with you and goes, wow, and wouldn’t that be wonderful? Let’s make that part of the plan. That’s all they say. Which one are you going to choose? You know, you’ve already looked at their websites, you know, they’re relevant.

Which way do you choose? What do you think about that? Derek? Oh, man, I’m just speechless. I love all of it. It resonates so much with how I run my practice. And I just, you know, you said something that resonated with me just there too, is that listening obviously is a big piece that we’re hearing over and over and over again and not having to fill those dead spaces. Right. And I think part of that also means we have to be humble. Like it’s, it’s not all about us. We’re there to help somebody else and then we can only help if we listen and we’re quiet.

Yeah, man, I don’t need to be the dead horse. I just, it’s good stuff. And I just, if you do this as an advisor, man, you are going to not only find the success that you’re looking for, but you’re going to, you’re going to be happy and fulfilled. You know, where I see this tactically getting a totally abused on these web meetings, right? These Zoom go to meetings where somebody feels like there always has to be some noise coming out of the microphone. Like an advisor typically is in charge of the meeting. It’s their meeting. They’re running the screen. The clients may be less sophisticated on the, on the virtual.

And so it’s almost incumbent to run the meeting like a boss, right? Like run it, run it, run it. And then, but where, where’s the, where’s the opportunity to share, especially in this new venue for a lot of advisors, right? We’ve been doing it for so long. I think we know how to do it. I’ve been really practicing since I heard this from the pause to make opportunities for people to break in. Otherwise, just like a podcast, I’m just go, go, go. Here’s all this information. And I got it from a viral 45 minute meeting. Yeah. Like, because you know, I’m going back to back and I got another meeting coming up and I got to get it all in, which means prepared for, you know, one and a half X time.

Like we’re, we’re moving. I’ve been trying to put these pauses in every three minutes now where I just stop like, what did you lose internet? No, I’m, I’m making space so that you can actually say something, but we’re all going to run over you. And I think that’s a skill that we can all pay attention to a hundred percent. Cause if you keep talking, they can’t keep up with the processing, right? You gotta stop, let them actually hear what you said and vice versa, or maybe redirect us, right? Say maybe I’m on the wrong path completely. I really want to talk about this animal running at a time.

And if I don’t leave space, they’re, they’re not going to get their needs met. And I will never know. Right. Cause you can’t read the body language in the same way. Right. Super important. So we asked George, he said, is there, is there anything else the community needs to be aware of? You’ve got such a fantastic perspective, really just blow us away. You got to hear what he said. This was really, this is amazing. Yeah. I have a, one of my books is about, that’s going to be coming out is about freedom. And, and that freedom, that, that the notion there, it has three, three elements.

It’s called the three domains of freedom. And one of them, one of those domains is each moment is yours. The second domain is each is that your life is yours. And that’s where life planning comes in. And the third domain is that civilization is yours. And we, we are in an incredible place in the financial industry. We have a power that we’ve not owned. And I think the financial industry has the potential if we stand up and say fiduciary is what we ought to be to transform the planet. Would we, would there be a huge contingent of mankind right now, humanity right now, worried about global warming if the banks didn’t lend to people that did, that endangered the endangered the planet or whatever would.

So, so, so here’s my, my thing. I think that there’s a simple legislative statement, one sentence that I’m proposing that I think would very quickly end war and planet danger and threats to democracy and racism and bigotry and false news and propaganda. One simple sentence legislated and it has to do with a fiduciary standard applied by institutions all across the world. Should I, should I read it or you want to see it here? Yeah, read it. You’re going to have to maybe send that to us. We’ll have that. That’s brilliant. Okay. Yeah. So it, it reads like this and there’d be controversy around this, but you guys, you guys thrive on controversy.

Oh yeah. You’d love it. So a fiduciary standard of obligation is required for all institutions, corporate, nonprofit, and governmental to place the interests of all stakeholders of humanity, democracy, and the living planet that sustains us first above their own self-interest. So it’s just basically, you know, putting human decency and putting our values of democracy, each other, and the planet into the contract that we get these tax privileges and these special benefits of being corporate or partnership or nonprofit or whatever. Well, there ought to be some expectation that the society automatically is going to benefit from that as well. Just a basic humane standard. That’s what I propose and it’s fiduciary and we’re the profession that understands what fiduciary is.

We’ve debated it. There’s a lot of controversy around it. I think it’s time for civilization to have it. And I think without it, as the Scientific American came out with their study, I don’t know if you saw this last week, Scientific American came out with a big piece saying there’s a very good chance humanity will go extinct this century. And they list all the reasons from a scientific standpoint. So anyway, that’s my bold, wild, humongous thing for you. Well, drop the mic on that one. Talk about a mind bender. I mean, what else do you say? Whoa. Yeah, boy. Fiduciary is a humane standard. Forget just doing right by your clients.

Are we doing right by each other, by the species? Right? Interesting. It’s very interesting. And I think in theory, personally, I like it. I don’t know if some governmental bodies or corporate are going to embrace. They’re making good money on that. Yeah. But you know what? It doesn’t mean we can’t strive for it, right? It is true. I really applaud George on this one. And I appreciated his willingness to be bold and to share and to push also the limits. I think of what some people are, you know, they’re not willing to go there, but I love that he did it right. Because it’s a fantastic, you know, for somebody who’s contributed so much to not only the industry, but to the planet and also as an artist who’s still contributing and communicating in his life plan.

You know, it’s a fantastic legacy to keep building upon. So George, thank you so much for being with us and spending the time out of your crazy schedule and of course, your life plan to contribute back to our community. We really appreciate it. Let’s wrap this up, Derek. We traditionally know, as you know, we always come up with what are some takeaways that we can help our listeners say, okay, bundle that down. What did you take away from a couple, you know, there’s so much here. I mean, there’s a ton here. This is one you want to listen to a couple of times, but a couple of things come to mind right away.

One is, is part of your process with your clients, or maybe as the leading process with your clients, is to ask qualitative questions. You know, the who, what, why, things. What’s driving your clients? What is the deeper meaning behind everything they’re doing? As George said, it’s like the first hour and a half of two hours, he just listens and really probes to find out what is driving them. Don’t just ask date of birth, social security number and how much they have in their 401k, please. Okay. Because those things are not driving their social security number does not drive their life plan. It really doesn’t. Fiduciary is a mindset for sure.

And obviously, it’s quickly becoming a legal expectation of the consumer has just been so much press around it. So like when you look at yourself how you were operating as advisor, are you being a fiduciary in every sense of the word? Whether it’s the humanity, the humane standard that he’s talking about or whatever, but I really think about that. And if you aren’t, why? And then, you know, I think advisors are really the salt of the earth. And I think it’s important that we take pride and pleasure in the work that we do. And when we listen, man, can we have such an amazing positive impact on the people that we’re serving?

And as George even said, those are the people that are going to refer more business to you and give you all their business and talk about a ripple effect of positivity that we can have just by doing great work. Adam, what did you take away, man? I know there’s a ton here, but what’s on your mind? Well, I love what you said there. Fiduciary is a mindset. It really is. That’s the part that I think we all need to adopt and look into for our own selves because it does come down to daily action. Look, I love the pause. I mentioned it before. I’m really actually trying to implement that in my coaching world for myself.

What can I take from this personally? Make pauses not only on your podcasts or on your presentations, but also on your other daily meetings that are virtual or otherwise, or even with your family. Make space for people. I agree completely. Listening requires that we actually need to learn again how to ask open-ended questions. We need to let people run on and share and communicate and be listened to. I love what he said about, I remember a long time ago, I thought I had this fantastic conversation with somebody who was so connecting. I felt so involved in the relationship and I realized I didn’t actually, I talked the entire time.

I talked about myself and I felt so connected because I felt like they listened to me, but I learned nothing about them in the same part. So think about that from my own mindset. I was like, what a great conversation. I’m like, I did all the talking. To me, it was great because I shared all the time. But I realized that I didn’t listen. It was a big eye-opener for me, maybe an ear-opener to recognize that sometimes we need to give people that gift back and listen to them. And then the last thing I thought he said was just, I can’t get out of my head.

And I want to ask all of you that are listening to actually pretend for a fiduciary in everything you did for an entire week. I’m going to take an action right now. Am I acting like a fiduciary at the planetary level or for my family or for my kids? Am I acting in the best interests as if I had personal at-stake risk that the decisions I make, the actions I take are going to be completely selfless? And I think it’s interesting because even when he said fiduciary is a humane standard, I think that’s kind of altruistic, right? And that is really where this, I don’t know, maybe our species has the opportunity to be really unique on this planet is to also elevate others and help other people.

It’s the real kind of place where we get meaning. And I know it’s touchy feely and I hope you appreciate it because it’s still true. When we’re all 80 years old and looking back, that’s what we’re going to think. We’re just accelerating now in our 40s, okay, let’s actually think like an 80 year old would and let’s actually think about others, not ourselves. So interesting. You’re still in your 40s? I am in my 40s, yeah. Oh, okay. In the late 40s, but I don’t tell anybody. I don’t look like I’m in my, I had a client laugh at me the other day because they hadn’t seen me in like a year and like, my God, you went great.

It’s like, thanks. I’m just, yeah, nice to see you too. Anyways, sorry, I digress. That’s never happened before. Never, never. I’m always super focused in listening and pausing. So our last thing is, you guys know, we always take a community question. We got this email from Rachel in California of all places, right? In your backyard. Backyard. Why don’t you share what she said? Yes, it’s an interesting question. So she says here, okay, you two are always talking about leading with advice. Yes, we are. We talk about that a lot, but I am struggling with quantifying it as an advisor and communicating my actual value to clients.

What is the value of advice to consumers from advisors, given the product commoditization that we have now? What do you think? Yeah. Well, I look, this is a, this is a common enough question. I mean, you know, there’s a lot of pressures out there and communicating that is the bigger challenge. So we’re going to actually, our next podcast is going to talk about this, we had an opportunity to talk to Dan Crosby, who’s really just an expert in behavioral finance. And he had some great things to say here. So, so I think we’ll push this to next time because George did such a great job.

I’m kind of blown away. I know, right? That’s, yeah. So there’s so much brain bandwidth for all of this. That’s yeah. Perfect. So we’ll, let’s, we’ll take this on Rachel for our next conference. Of course, we’ll send you a t-shirt or a baseball cap. If you want, you can always go to the asset map store and check out our, our swag. If you want it, pre-order it and walk around with a big shirt that says rethink, rethink everything perhaps. But let’s, let’s push that to the next time. We’ll look forward to hearing what Dan had to say at our next podcast. And my friend, it was a pleasure spending this time interviewing such a hero.

So. Oh man. Yeah, thank you. I, yeah, we’re, we’re, we’re all like, we’re lucky. Yeah. I mean, it was a real privilege. So yeah, great seeing your brother. Awesome conversation. And thanks everybody for listening. We’re hoping you’re doing well and getting off to a great start for the new year. Absolutely. And make sure you send this podcast to the friends that you know, need to hear it. Right. So let’s, let’s all have a conversation. There’s no reason why we shouldn’t do that. Make sure you subscribe. And of course we’ll see you on the next rethink. Adios. Thank you for listening to Rethink, the financial advisor podcast with Holt and Notman.

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