Ep 30: Cut the Tie! Is Advisor Attire dated?

Episode 30 of Rethink Financial Advice, co-hosted by Derek Notman, CFP® (Founder & CEO, Couplr AI) and H. Adam Holt, CFP® (Founder & CEO, Asset-Map). (29:00)

Episode 30 of Rethink Financial Advice, co-hosted by Derek Notman, CFP® (Founder & CEO, Couplr AI) and H. Adam Holt, CFP® (Founder & CEO, Asset-Map). Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or Acast.

Episode Summary

Adam Holt and Derek Notman work through whether the suit-and-tie convention still serves advisors, and use it as a way into a larger question about authenticity. Notman describes entering the business in 2006, when polished formal dress was simply the expectation, believing it signalled competence, and later discovering his clients did not particularly want it. The episode was prompted by a post of his that circulated widely, inspired by Richard Branson’s willingness to be conspicuous. The more useful half of the conversation is about what replaces the uniform. Holt describes the persona many advisors are trained into, the flashy watch and the convertible, as a kind of armor that gets in the way of the thing clients actually want, which is a sense of who you really are. Both argue authenticity is easier to sustain than performance.

What this episode covers

• Why formal dress became the industry default, and what it was meant to signal
• What happened when one host tested a deliberately unconventional position in public
• The performed persona advisors are trained into, and what it costs them
• Using an authentic identity as the organizing principle for a website and social presence
• Being bold without being reckless, and where the hosts draw that line

Full Transcript

Machine-generated transcript of this episode.

Welcome to Rethink, the financial advisor podcast. My name is Adam Holtz. And this is Derek Notman. We are your hosts, both veteran advisors and FinTech CEOs who challenge the status quo, question everything and have fun doing it. Hear honest commentary on the challenges facing advisors today and be part of a community where we can all rethink the profession. Now on to our episode. Derek, can advisors finally junk their business attire? Did you say junk their business or their attire? Not junk their tires, junk their business attire. In my opinion, yes, man. I think the times have changed and we got to stay with the times.

So I think we need to get rid of our traditional business attire. Wow, what do you think, man? There’s people literally rolling over in their graves thinking about their white starched shirts, blue ties that are saying, I spent 50 years in this industry and we wore the same shirt every day and we had to. And there was a reason to though, there was a reason. It was the expectation. Well, I mean, there’s so many topics I could cover here as examples. Probably some of them will get me into trouble, but let’s just leave it to this, Adam, is that we can call it progress. We can call it evolution.

We can call it change. Things change and expectations change and whatever is considered the quote, unquote norm changes. And I think that that has happened more. I mean, heck, so when I started in 2006, I mean, you were already an old man when I started, but. According to you, I’ve always been an old man. Thanks, dad. When I started, that was the expectation. Suit tie, polished shoes, nice socks, nice shirt and you wore that stuff to the office on your way to the office in your client meetings and that’s what all it was. And you know, I thought it’s what I wanted. I thought it was comfortable at first.

I thought I liked it. I’m like, oh, this will make me successful, man. People are gonna buy from you because like power suit, power tie, power windows. Here we go. That’s a good one. Power windows and power tie. But it turns out that really wasn’t what my clients wanted. And how did you figure that out though? What was the moment when all of a sudden you realized that your clients wanted you to take off the time? So, well, so part of it was, okay, first when you’re in the office setting, you’re in the bullpen, you’re in the training room and you’re wearing this stuff. Everyone else is wearing it like, yeah, pat yourself in the back.

Great job in the cold calling session, right? Like rock on and you feel great. But then you get into the real world and you’re sitting across the kitchen table from your clients. And remember, so I, my clients, which was rural Vermont. And so like I would, I would arrive and I’m sitting there. I’m this dude with a full suit and tie on and I’m meeting with this lovely family or a business owner or a farmer and they’re in their shit kickers. Man, I feel out of place here. And I still remember, I don’t know exactly which meeting it was, but it was very early on.

I’m sitting there at the table and we’re just chit chatting and getting to know each other. I’m like, and I’m looking at them and you know, there’s kind of that feeling of we’re all a little uncomfortable. It’s first date type of experience. I’m like, do you mind if I get rid of my tie? And they just laughed, please get rid of the tie. It was great. So I took it off. And ever since then, that was what started the rabbit hole of changing my attire. Next thing you know, you’re in flip-flops. Next time in flip-flops, board shorts. And yeah, pretty much, I’m in flip-flops right now.

I’m sure as am I by the way, just wanna let you know. Yes. And shorts. And shorts, total. It’s true. That’s interesting. When you mentioned the whole kitchen table thing, that was very similar to me, the catalyst for me was people felt uncomfortable with the business attire at their kitchen table. And they, I know somebody actually offered to me, said, listen, you can, by the way, you can loosen your tie, take off your tie, get rid of your sport coat, roll up your sleeves. It was permission that the customer or the client said, hey, I’m okay. I already trust you. Or I already know what this meeting is about.

It’s about my financial security and I’m not hiring you for your time. Now granted, I will tell you this, showing up without it might’ve set a different tone though too, right? There’s a difference when you show up for battle and you got your full regalia on and you realize, okay, this is really a piece of cord, okay? Okay, we can afford to put our guns down. I think that there has been a general, and it’s served our, I think it’s served the financial services community by creating a level of professionalism and elevating the stature perhaps, very similar to a military uniform that people tended to respect, honor, give credibility to.

You remember in the 1950s, people wore a tie to the supermarket, okay? They didn’t leave the house without a jacket or a hat, right? There was an expected social attire that the nicer your suit, the more custom-made your suit, the better the fabric. People cared about this stuff, the shine on your shoe, right? Sure. Was actually a sign of success and of potentially credibility. And I think in financial services, no different than the banks having stone columns in front of them, people got used to, I think, traditionally and culturally that that represented security, safety, and professionalism. I didn’t go to any lawyer meeting where the lawyer didn’t have a tie.

Today, I go to legal meetings, the lawyer’s not wearing suits, right? They’re not. You know, I love your analogy and how you explain how it’s changed. But look at banks. Look at some of the big, I think it’s Capital One now is doing these commercials where they want you to come in and like they’ve got couches and it’s this open architecture. It’s new, you get a cup of coffee, it’s digital banking, and it’s changed from the traditional very conservative banks. So I think that’s just happened. Well, I think it’s happened in our industry. I know some of you listening, you’re like, no, ties till I die.

You know, I’m not, that’s it. But I think it’s overall, it really is, it has shifted. And I think that you said it spot on. The client gave you permission. Yeah. The expectation was different and you showed up for battle, but maybe we didn’t need to show up for battle. Maybe we just needed to show up for the piece of cord, right? Well, yeah. Be more aware of it. You know, that’s really a funny analogy because in many ways, if you remember in the early days of our career, when we showed up, it was a suit of armor. It was a way for us to stand taller, to have a level of professional protectionism against being authentic, because we didn’t know whether people would wanna do business with us if they really knew us, right?

By donning the suit, by donning the briefcase. That, or whatever you were wearing, the formal wear, that almost elevated your stature because as we should all be realizing it, our clothing says something about us in a non-verbal communication that’s being interpreted, whether we realize it or not, right? I always remember to go to these producer conferences. They would get together. They would say, okay, it’s business professional. People would all come in ties because they know their mentors or their bosses were there and they would wanna look like everybody else. And then one guy inevitably shows up in his loafers, no socks and a Hawaiian shirt.

That was me. That was you, okay. Everybody, half the people are looking at this guy and saying like, what is this schmuck doing? And the other guys are like, wow, he must be really successful if he’s really not even following the protocol. He’s just wearing whatever he wants. He must be the top producer. So the funny thing about it is that people all take this differently. And I think that’s really kind of leads us into what started this podcast topic because this wasn’t our plan to talk about this today, but you had this post that just went mega viral and I wanted to ask you about it.

So give us the backstory on your cut to tie post that you just did. Yeah, it was really fun. So for me, my creativity tends to happen sporadically and I’ll have these fits of cool idea, let’s run with it and let’s go. I don’t spend hours and hours thinking about how I can be creative, okay. And for those of you who don’t know, one of my, I guess you could say idols or mentors I’ve never met is Richard Branson. And I’ve read all of his books. I follow him religiously. I love his style and everything that he does. And he is known for doing the same thing.

I’m like, well, let’s have some fun with this, right? Like within at least my little circle that I have. And I just like, hey, honey, I needed to get the nice camera out. I want you to take a couple of pictures of me cutting this tie. Right, it was just that quick. I’m like, this is totally sporadic, like spur of the moment. And we did it and I posted it and the thing did go viral. I posted it on Twitter and on LinkedIn. On Twitter, Richard Branson actually responded to it. So that’s really cool, right? That’s super cool. I was really stoked about that. But it was really about, I mean, this is what this podcast is about, Adam.

I mean, like we talk about this in our intro, challenging the status quo. And this was a way for me to visually do that while also letting my personal brand come through and talk about something that I am interested in. And then I think it helps drive conversation and maybe hopefully gets you to think about things, something a little bit differently. And you were one of the contributors on the post and you had a ton of comments just on your comment. Yeah, well, of course I took the opposite position, right, just because I’m so used to our podcasting. Yeah, right. I’m like, here’s Derek cutting the tie.

Now let me, everybody tell everybody why they need to tape the tie back together. By the way, I’m keep wondering, what did Richard Branson say? Did he say stop stalking me or what did he say something productive? No, I asked him, okay, how many ties have you cut? And he just wrote back quite a few. Well, that’s awesome. It was really cool. See, even those words from your mentor is really a cool blessing. You know, look, there’s a couple of things I take from that just in general, which is number one, you don’t have to be brilliant to get kind of engagement, right? Sometimes the most authentic stuff really.

Are you saying I’m really kind of a dud? No, no, you’re creative. I said you’re… I never said that at all. Look, you can engage me. You crushed all my posts. Like I’m looking up to you, you’re the man. I guess I’m not creative. Unfortunately, I probably think about creativity all the time. It’s why I can’t do anything intelligent. You’re super creative. But, or impactful. But I think that’s really interesting how effective you were at engaging people by doing something almost controversial, but not disrespectful. Exactly. And started a conversation where people actually had real position on this and had never really talked about it. And we did hear one of our recent podcasts actually we’re about to produce it from South Africa, Cobus Clan is really known for wearing a tie all the time.

He loves his ties. He wrote back. Yeah. But yeah. So I thought it was really cool because it started some great conversation. Make sure you check it out on either of those platforms, LinkedIn or Twitter, because you’ll start to see everybody’s talking about the flip-flops and talking about getting rid of the dress shoes or we’re holding onto them. I think there’s some really interesting conversations. You know, what’s funny, you can’t see in the picture and we’ll link to the post in this episode, but I’m not wearing any shoes. At all. At all. You are wearing a suit in this picture. I know, right? Well, I wouldn’t even call it, it’s like sport coat, right?

Like, I mean. Been so long. That’s me, I don’t know, yeah. But it was a lot of fun. It was a lot of good conversation. LinkedIn even did a spotlight on it. They liked it so much. That is really cool. And boy, that probably expanded your own preeminence in the space massively. I mean, think about how many people you touched and now got to know that Derek Notman is actually a figure here. That’s literally the way that advisors should be thinking about marketing going forward. I’m not saying that all of us in the financial advisor space need to do something wacky and crazy just to get attention.

I’m saying that just showing a bit of authenticity and having a position that can be debated is really valuable in lifting your overall preeminence and awareness so that you are the most critical aspect of marketing today. Being top of mind. Being top of mind is the hardest thing to do because we all have so many things on our mind. But it’s really important that we find ways to be relevant in this space of people’s limited attention span. And I think these are some great ways to do it by showing your originality and your authenticity in the social environment. And it could start with just how you actually dress when you actually interact with people.

Yeah, I mean, let’s face it, Adam. We connect with others on just some pretty basic human fundamentals. And if we can show that, pretty cool stuff can happen. Because of that post, I had new connections and I’m not taking new clients from my wealth management firm. So I’m not really trying to do it on that side but I got new business for Connector and Coupler actually. Because of it, all through LinkedIn. And it didn’t cost me anything but a few minutes of my time and engaging. So you’re right, preeminence dot leadership just putting your name out there. And again, you don’t have to be as bold as cutting a tie but the posts I like the most because I follow it, thousands of advisors.

The ones I like the most on LinkedIn are not the ones about backdoor Roths and stuff like that. I like the ones that are more human about their family, about things they’ve learned, stuff they struggled with. Like one of my favorite posts of yours when you were wearing, like it was a picture of yourself and you had like this, it almost looked like one of those like gold chains and clocks from the nineties of the old rappers. But it was a great post. It was a great post. And like, that’s the stuff that resonates. And I’ve had so many people even this week say, Derek, your stuff is always in front of me.

I’m always seeing your stuff. Yeah. And so if you’re an advisor listening, what we’re trying to say is brand awareness, thought leadership, your personal brand really do matter. They really are important. No matter where you wanna put that stake in the ground and what you wanna talk about. Yeah, that’s true. So many of advisors we know still have not gotten into the whole exposing their personal brand and their authenticity through these types of media channels. And generally we think that’s a risk. That’s a risk. I wouldn’t say it’s a mistake. It’s just a risk. And the risk has always been, as we’ve talked about in prior podcasts, that people don’t know who you are.

They don’t know you exist. They can’t find out if you’re the best financial advisor for them because they just don’t know you exist. And the places that they’re looking, Google and, you know, they may talk to their friends occasionally and ask for a referral. They’re gonna search for you either way. And if you don’t exist in digital space, it’s almost like you’re not relevant, right? So the key to being a thought leader or a subject matter expert and having a presence, whether you created it or the media created it for you, is I think gonna be critical going into the future just because that’s how people are finding out.

That’s how people are finding it. Yeah. I mean, think about the last thing you bought. You probably searched it on Google. You probably checked out reviews in some time. 100%. And then you just did it. You just bought it. And it’s like, that’s good enough for me. I need done is better than perfect. So that’s, I think how people are gonna choose their financial advisors if the costs are aligned. But I think relatability is big. So taking it full circle back to how you dress, right? Your forward facing first impressions is very often how you dress and how you retire. So I think audience is big.

We do know the difference between meeting with a millennial. I’m not gonna wear my full suit, okay? But if I’m meeting with the greatest generation, I might be inclined to have a tie and a pressed shirt because I know my audience and I know what they historically or culturally they are gonna look for when they’re making a decision around is this person relatable versus is this person credible? Because they’re asking two separate questions those generations. Equally important though. Exactly, right. You know, that’s a really interesting point you make. And I would say that the only thing I would add to that because you’re right on both counts is find some balance between what the expectation of that client is depending on their generation as you said, but then also your own comfort level.

One of the things I say in the post is that I’m feeling uncomfortable. Like I did all those years ago at the kitchen table when I’m in my stuffy suit and tight tie, then I’m probably gonna project that uncomfortability a little bit to those around me. So if I’m a little bit more comfortable because I’m wearing what really feels great and if that means you’re wearing a tie like our friend Kobus then rock on, go do that. You know, if you wanna wear the heels and the dress like rock on, like go do be you. But I think that comfort level really is important. It’s okay to be a little selfish there to look in the mirror and say, hey, how do I really feel?

So I can make sure I’m my best for my clients. Yeah, it’s true that this whole virtual movement has clearly changed the game because it gave us permission for the first time to not say, oh, I didn’t put on a suit today because I’m working from home and I need to go pick up the groceries later and the kids and right. So people accepted that and forgave that. So I don’t think a lot of people wanna go back by the way, even if they’re gonna go back to the office. I’m not saying that I would expect the advisors and our firm to come back, you know, all wearing flip-flops and more shorts.

No, no, no, I wouldn’t do that either. I don’t think that will happen yet. I think it eventually might happen. For some. We probably will jettison the office before we require people to wear a full suit. That will go before the time, you know, before the sport code. But I think also there’s an aspect of leadership if you have staff, if you have team, we all know that the organizations will tend to follow the protocol of the leader. We always used to say that if the CEO wears a tie, then everybody else is gonna be wearing a tie, right? If the CEO wears no tie, then you’re gonna see go down to sport coats really fast.

And that works all the way down through to the rank and file employees. So if you have a full organization, recognize your choicefulness is gonna have an impact because people will tend to follow your lead thinking, that’s what I’m expected to do. That’s what I’m supposed to do. In a virtual world, clearly a much different environment as you know all too well. So do you, you’ve been doing it a lot longer than I have. You know, and I would say like, you know your client, we’ve talked about that before. Know what was really gonna resonate, but be comfortable. And whether you’re a one advisor shop or you’re running something the size of Richard Branson’s enterprises, you don’t have to have a tie to be successful though.

And I think that was one of the points I was trying to make is people wanted to get to know me, not the tie that I had on my neck. You know, there’s one other thought I wanna do before we can wrap up our takeaways. There are ways to project your brand that I think a lot of financial advisors haven’t tried yet. And I would actually tell you that both Derek and I are doing this. Looking at our videos, which you can’t see, Derek is wearing a t-shirt that has his coupler company brand on it. I’m wearing a t-shirt that has my Advice Tech Live brand on it, which is our big event that’s coming up soon.

The reason I say this is that I’ve seen a lot of advisors try to brand their own clothing, but they buy the same old stuff. They buy the golf t-shirt. And I think it’s an interesting opportunity to get regular old t-shirts made, not old, new, cool looking branded t-shirts with your firm on it, or hats that people actually wanna wear that look cool. And it’s an opportunity to actually, cause if you ever see me in public, I’m almost always wearing one of my own brands out like a billboard, but I’m comfortable, but I’m wearing the brand and I’m representing. And I think what it’s done for me is it’s, besides making me constantly think about brand, it’s also allowed me to say, we’re actually cool and hip.

We’re not wearing my grandpa’s polo shirt that I only wear on the golf course. Why actually I don’t golf. So I wear it never. So, but it was expensive and I guess, all right. But the point is that I think we can also have fun with this and even wear our branded company shirts. Like we’re a tech company to a meeting with a sport coat and then give our clients those same branded cool shirts as gifts and let them walk around and be like, oh, what’s that cool tech company? Oh no, that’s my financial advisor firm. How awesome would that be from a branding? Think about actually taking a persona of your identity and literally expressing it on the daily in the supermarket.

So like, I think that that’s a possibility for advisors to think beyond the traditional garb. And I think that that’s cool. And I think relative to Kobus, I wanna go buy him a tie that says Kobus on it. I mean, like, if you’re gonna live it, live it out loud. And I think that’s an opportunity that we have uniquely that unlike any predecessor generation has had, we have the unique opportunity to live out loud. And for those of you that feel comfortable enough to start stretching it, start expressing it. But I think that resonates with people in a different way these days and is appreciated because it is novel and it is unique.

So why don’t we wrap it up with the takeaways? What are your takeaways from this conversation, Derek? Be genuine. Just be you. People want that more than the nice clothes, the flashy watch, the convertible. I was that guy. I used to drive up with a nice watch and a convertible. They have a suit. People don’t want that stuff. They want you to be genuine. It’s easier said than done. I think a lot of us, I know I was, was not really taught to be genuine. I was taught to have that, almost that battle armor persona. And it was tough to break out of that. But if you latch onto just who you are, you can use that to drive all of your social and digital media engagement, like what’s on your website.

What t-shirt are you having made that you’re giving your clients? Things like that really will be impactful and meaningful. And they’re you. So it’s really easy for you to get behind that and be comfortable at the same time. I would also say be bold. And I think you summed it up correctly in that I did something that was a bit edgy or bold, but I didn’t do something that was offensive. And there’s a fine line sometimes between the two. So just be bold. Take a stance on something in a way that doesn’t offend people necessarily, but where you can have a great conversation and dialogue around.

I think that’s really important. And you can do that with all of your marketing. I’ll tell you what, you can’t do that if you’re not genuine, because then you’re not being you, you’re being fake. Don’t be fake. All of this ties, pun intended, into your personal brand, right? So know that it’s all together. And then it really will impact your digital presence. I think that’s where I’ll leave it. Just, you know, those things together. And if you have any questions about any of it, just look how I interact on LinkedIn. I think that’ll speak volumes. And that was great, by the way. What kind of came to mind when you said that it’s reminded me of something else is this word of memorable, right?

We’re all trying to stand out in some regard. Sometimes we don’t want to stand in the front. We just don’t want to be in the back. But I think we want to be memorable these days. And the first thing I thought of is how some people have used attire in our space, attire, A-T-T-I-R-E, to set themselves apart and be memorable in little unique ways with or without the suit. Kitsis is a great example. He always has these blue dress shirts, right? Yes. So he’s taken his suit performance. Now he’s stuck with the suit, by the way. He has to wear a suit with a blue shirt.

Oh, he’s cast type for sure. He is cast type for life. But it works for him. But it works. He rocks it. Look at Tony Steeck, right? He, oh, Mr. Purple. He has always the nicest suit at every conference we ever go to. Nicest, nicest dressed. Has a purple carnation or some kind of thing that he brings back to his brand that he’s weaved into it. Way overdressed, okay? I should cut his tie, shouldn’t I? I should cut his tie. Oh yeah, I dare you to walk up to him and cut his tie. Right, he’s used to, he has six children or something. I think he can handle you, okay?

Or how about Johnny Sanquist? He’s figured out, oh, he’s got yellow pants. He wears yellow slacks to every event. You know who he is. You’ve never met him. You know what he is. He’s used this attire now and they’re khakis. They’re not like, they’re comfortable. He’s found a way to make it fun. And there’s several other people. I haven’t come up with anything cool. I wear like a dumb checkered sport coat. So I haven’t figured out my thing yet. I’ll find out in 15 days when I see you. That’s right, you’ll find out. But I think the key is, if you have an opportunity, you don’t have to take it as far as we are.

We’re trying to have fun with it. But really, whatever you choose, make it memorable because it’s gonna set an impression, right? Remember that your clothes, no matter what, is saying something about you. It’s about your brand. It’s saying something about how you’re perceived from a nonverbal communication standpoint. And it says whether you care or you don’t care how you see me, okay? It says something. The question is, are you being intentional about that? But we are finding more than ever, it’s an opportunity to be authentically comfortable and that comfort is translatable to whether you are relatable and so forth, or whether you’re selling something. And that’s the kind of, I think, the big key these days.

Nobody wants to be sold anymore. They want to be engaged and then they will buy from you. Okay, at the end of the day, we’re still in the business of facilitating either money management or insurance or annuity or banking or whatever, or actions or fees. There’s still a bit- As Michael Kitza says, the money’s gotta land somewhere. Right, and hopefully it’s landing in good hands, right? And so the key is, is do we trust those hands or do we feel like we’re being sold? And it’s an opportunity, I think, to become more approachable. And that’s, I think, really the trend that we’re seeing in what you talked about in the very beginning here, which is this generational evolution of what’s acceptable culturally in the norm from suits of armor to suits from Boyds of London to flip-flops or whatever we’re going.

Right, yeah. I think the key is just be relatable and just stay authentic to you. So that’s my takeaways from this whole fun discussion. Hopefully you heard something in there that’s gonna inspire you. I love it. One of your comments, I’m sorry, made me think, where you said a tire and you had to spell it out. Can you imagine showing up with an actual tire? Sure, people have done it before. You would be memorable, you’d be genuine. That’s right. If you really niched with automotive workers and you brought your tires, I live this stuff. Talk about a social media post. Seriously, you could be having to put a tire around you.

So anyone out there that’s working in the automotive space, that’s an idea for you. Well, after this summer, I feel like I have a tire around me, given all that ice cream I ate. Yeah, seriously. Maybe I am bringing a tire. None of my regular tire fits me. So I don’t know, we could have fun with that one. Anyway, my friend, good to see you. We have to remind everybody to do what? They have to listen. Hopefully they’re listening if they’re at this far in the episode, I sure hope so. They’re doing emails. All right, subscribe, subscribe. Let us know how it’s going, share this.

We’ve had so much great feedback, just even recently from advisors that just love our podcast. So yeah, just push it out there for us. Help us, tell us what you want us to talk about. Yeah, please do that. We have had taken a lot of questions in. It’s really been inspirational for what we talk about next. So if there’s a topic you wanna talk about, industry, you’re thinking it really needs to be rethought or there’s somebody you really want us to interview. We’ve had great success getting interviewees to participate in the Rethink tank. So with that being said, have a fantastic day. Remember to like this, give the review and we’ll see you at the next episode.

Rock on brother, we’ll talk to you later. You got it. Thank you for listening to Rethink, the financial advisor podcast with Holt and Notman. Be sure to subscribe now and join the ongoing conversation. The information covered and posted represents the views and opinions of the guest and does not necessarily represent the views or opinions of AssetMap or Connector. The content has been made available for informational and educational purposes only.