Ep 43: Financial Well-Being Starts Day One Featuring Catherine Morgan Episode 43

Episode 43 of Rethink Financial Advice, co-hosted by Derek Notman, CFP® (Founder & CEO, Couplr AI) and H. Adam Holt, CFP® (Founder & CEO, Asset-Map). (35:41)

Episode 43 of Rethink Financial Advice, co-hosted by Derek Notman, CFP® (Founder & CEO, Couplr AI) and H. Adam Holt, CFP® (Founder & CEO, Asset-Map). Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or Acast.

Episode Summary

Catherine Morgan joins Adam Holt and Derek Notman to define what holistic financial wellness actually means, and to separate it from the analytical fact-finding most advisors already do. Her starting observation is about shame. A large number of people never speak to a financial professional at all, because they received no financial education and treat that gap as a personal failing rather than a systemic one. The technique she offers is specific and uncomfortable. Hold silence longer than feels natural, then reflect back what you heard the client say about money, which for many people is the first time they have heard their own relationship with money described aloud. Morgan is careful about scope, arguing that advisors are not being asked to become therapists but to develop awareness of the emotional layer beneath the numbers.

What this episode covers

• What distinguishes financial wellness work from traditional analytical planning
• Shame as a barrier that keeps people from ever contacting an advisor at all
• Holding silence and reflecting back as a discovery technique
• Where the boundary sits between awareness and financial therapy
• The wider shifts making financial education accessible to more people

Full Transcript

Machine-generated transcript of this episode.

Welcome to Rethink, the financial advisor podcast. My name is Adam Holt. And this is Derek Notman. We are your hosts, both veteran advisors and FinTech CEOs who challenge the status quo, question everything and have fun doing it. Hear honest commentary on the challenges facing advisors today. And be part of a community where we can all rethink the profession. Now on to our episode. Derek, is holistic financial wellness legit? Well, first of all, it’s a great use of the word legit. That’s pretty legit. Thank you. That’s an interesting question that you bring up. I think it is. I think there’s this transformation happening almost before our eyes.

And it’s a better direction. I think that we’re headed. Is it touchy feely? Does it sound a little hokey maybe depending on how you hear it? Yeah, but there’s so much more to it. There’s so much more meat to the bone on this one that I think it’s really, really important. What do you think? It’s too legit to quit, my man. It’s too legit to quit. It is. I don’t think anybody wants to hear us sing that song. I can’t sing it. But you just basically aged yourself, which was hilarious. I did age myself. I do have a big clock and a gold necklace around my neck as well.

You look great, I have to say. The flavor of flavor is coming out. The flavor of flavor is coming out. Ha ha ha. You know, it’s funny because in our last podcast with Dave Carr from Equitable Advisors, he brought up the fact that institutionally they’re investing in training financial professionals to become holistic financial planners or coaches for that matter. Yes, he did. And they’re not the only ones. We’ve talked to a couple of companies and also independents. And we’ll call them the early leaders of holistic financial planning that have moved to this concept. But I think a lot of financial advisors don’t understand it. And it does sound like a therapy session.

And they don’t necessarily know how this differs from the typical fact finding, projections, asset allocation, implementation, customer service around performance. The execution of, we’ll call it, traditional financial planning has been very academic and analytical. Not necessarily driven into this idea of wellness. So why do you think this is becoming such a big topic? I’m not sure the why behind it, but my impression is that more and more people are realizing how emotional their money is. For one reason or another, I don’t know why. I mean, and there’s probably more than one reason. But people are realizing, wow, my money makes me feel this way. Retirement or paying for my kids’ college or buying my second dream home, whatever it is, makes me feel a certain way.

And ultimately my feelings drive my financial decisions. So I should probably pay more attention to that. And I think this is where we have this problem is because we have this generation or generations of advisors in traditional financial planning and sales that doesn’t talk about that stuff, at least as a core part of their process. But what’s cool is that the consumer’s driving this and more and more people are being exposed to it and aware of it. So I wish I knew the reason. We need a researcher to figure that one out. And that’s not Flavor Flav or myself, but- I’m sure you could do it.

Yeah, and all my free time. Yeah, I would say Flavor Flav could actually do it. But we have a guest actually today that we’re going to bring on who really, really studies this. And I think we have this research and we’re gonna share it with everybody because this interview with Catherine Morgan was really insightful for us and was longer than we expected it to be because it really is just a fantastic conversation. We hope you stick around and listen to this completely. There’s some real great takeaways. Introduce us to Catherine Morgan, if you wouldn’t mind, Derek. She is a recovering financial advisor turned certified financial coach and really focuses on the financial wellness aspect of people and their money.

And she has very thoughtful, emotionally charged, connected bits of advice and information for people. So you definitely want to be able to listen to her. I actually got in touch with her because she is part of this group called the Business Chicks. And she actually went to Necker Island with Richard Branson and in a group of these other successful females. And the whole core of their group was talking about financial wellness, financial abuse, how to make things better. And that really got my attention very early on. I’m like, wow, she’s able to get to Necker Island with Richard Branson and talk about this stuff. There’s something here I want to know more.

So she runs a couple of businesses. She lives in a small island right now, south of England, but she has been stateside as well. Just a really great person, professionally, personally, serves a lot of folks, but also serves other advisors. We’ll put the links in the notes, but she’s got some really interesting things to share about financial wellness and her perspective I think we can learn from. And I know she’s written a best-selling book called It’s Not About the Money and that’s also her podcast. So we asked Catherine actually to share how she got into this in the first place. What I think what happened for me is I had a very personal transformation in my own relationship with money after I almost lost my second son to bacterial meningitis when he was five weeks.

And the impact of that for me was I went into a huge spiral of anxiety and PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder. And my relationship with money at the time as a practicing financial advisor at that point was pretty bad. Like I would live in constant debt, recurring debt shame cycles as a financial advisor. So you can imagine the layers of guilt and shame that we’re attached to. I should be good with money because I’m a financial advisor. I should know everything about money. And it just went to show me that even though you can know everything about money from a logical perspective, it doesn’t make you good with money.

And this is what my experience was personally. And I then started to build a consumer business to help other people transform their relationship with money after I’d healed myself. And what was interesting for me is the impact that that work I was doing over here with day-to-day clients was then impacting my ability to connect in with the work I was doing as a financial planner and building cashflow forecast plans and giving financial advice on products. There was this huge missing piece of the puzzle for me, which is where are we helping clients to make better financial decisions for themselves? Much more empowering than just telling them what they should be doing.

And so that’s the connection between the work that we do in supporting the consumer business and helping financial professionals to be better at what they do. Yeah, Catherine, thank you for sharing that heartfelt story. I mean, that I think will resonate with a lot of people. I’m sorry you had to go through that, but sounds like a lot of good came out of it. Yeah, he’s like the happiest nine-year-old boy now. Oh, that’s brilliant. I love it. I love it. He’s like a little beam of magic. And it was obviously a very interesting time, but there’s so many experiences that we all have, whether it’s to do with health in our own lives or our families and with our clients.

Clients are going through and experiencing significant traumas and little traumas that can impact on their ability to make decisions. Because the way that we make decisions are not based on behaviors or mindset, it’s what the body stores. And we kind of going more into the therapy space here. I appreciate that financial planners are not therapists, but I do appreciate that. The way that we establish our relationship with ourself and how we feel drives the behaviors. So therefore it would make natural sense to understand the emotions that sit behind the decisions that we make, whether it’s related specifically to money or not, so that we can help our clients to get better outcomes and to live happier lives.

That resonates so much, and clearly you have a unique perspective as you just outlined. So from that perspective, and Amy, currently right now you’re in the Channel Islands, just south of the UK, and you’ve spent time in the States. What is your perspective of the financial advice market? Such a great question. I think there’s lots of really positive changes and shifts that are happening in financial services. What I have experienced now for just over 23, 24 years is I believe that there is a greater shift towards things like behavioral finance, much more focus on the planning aspects, and trying to make financial education more accessible to more people.

And I think there’s some really positive things happening in that space. Social media alone allows people an opportunity to share their stories, to gain more credibility and build more trust with potentially new clients that would quite frankly never go and see a financial advisor because there’s so much shame and guilt attached to even going to speak to a financial professional because they weren’t all about money at school. And I see there’s some really positive shifts, even with things like Netflix documentaries. I’ve been involved with some of the projects specifically around money as well, with the Virgin Unite Trust. I spent a week on Necker Island with Richard Branson this year talking about things like financial abuse, financial education, his daughter actually does a lot of work in that space.

So there’s lots of really positive things happening. Where I feel like we need to continue to drive change is in a couple of ways. Firstly, is it would be so beautiful to be able to bring about both the logical linear way that we make decisions around money and the practical things that clients need advice on, tax planning, investing, all of those things. And in addition to that, add in this more kind of right-brain creative side of the way that the brain operates when we’re talking about money. Because actually when we’re talking about people’s financial future, the future is full of such uncertainty. And when we’re asking clients questions about what do you wanna do in retirement?

What do you wanna do with this money in 10 years time? Do you think you’re gonna need to access it? What are the risk questions? Are you gonna need to access this money in the next 10 years? How comfortable do you feel with these ups and downs in the stock market? Everything is positioned in the future. Now I find that really curious because the future is full of uncertainty and yet we’re trying to help a client to make decisions about something that is uncertain. And what we’re actually doing is we’re parking our client’s future happiness into the future. And the only certainty around money is uncertainty.

And we try and create this emotional reaction and feeling that we want the client to have financial stability, financial security, peace of mind. And that can come right now. Like that doesn’t have to wait. And I would love to see through the integration of things like financial coaching and financial therapy how we can help the client to feel safe, feel secure in their current reality, present moment. That’s the only thing where we actually have any element of certainty at all is in the here and now and not waiting for them, for their happiness to happen in the future. So this is really interesting. And I’m really glad that you brought this up.

I know Derek and I are nodding because we very much agree with your perspective. And as a result, a lot of advisors have been running practices that have been pretty much consistent with the way they’ve run practices for the past 10, 15, 20 years. And also with both of us, 20 some years experience in this space. I’m curious though, what do you think advisors don’t see coming? What’s the missing opportunity? I think the missing opportunity is in their ability to have more confidence in how they can support their clients at a much deeper level. I feel like quite often, I mean, when I think back to when I was a practicing advisor, I didn’t have the time to really explore deeply with my clients, their emotional feelings around money because I had a fact find to complete, I had a plan to build, and it was very much a kind of, I just need to ask these questions to tick a box kind of exercise.

And I know that some of these things are changing and shifting, but I feel like the missing opportunity is a time to really deeply connect with our clients and to really start the wheel in motion to help them to shift those generational beliefs for their clients so that we can start to educate the next generation. And how we do that is by learning how to listen and listen more intuitively and more deeply than we have probably learned how to do and how to communicate to our clients’ emotional relationship with money. And also the benefit of doing this is that it’s gonna help a financial professional to start thinking about how they can safeguard their business for the future and actually enjoy some of the work they do more by having those more meaningful conversations with clients.

I think you just list actually a pretty important action step and that is to be a better listener, which is really, really important. Do you have any other tactical advice, something that an advisor listening today or a coach could, or even a consumer that might be considering working with an advisor, what’s one or two tactical things someone can walk away with today and say, hey, I can do this, I can get a little bit better today? Oh, there’s so many. Okay, so one of the things that’s come to mind is let’s create an environment that is an all auditory experience with money. So when I say all sensory participation, I was to ask you a question such as, what’s your relationship like with money?

One of you might start seeing pictures or you can start to sort of remember the time when you went to the shop and you bought your first pound or penny sweets and you dropped them in the street or you lost them at school or there’ll be memories that come up of saving money in your piggy banks. Some of you will hear, like I remember the cashier printing and updating my little passbook that I had that showed me my balance of what was in my savings account. Some of you might even be able to smell the coins. You know, when you pick up a coin from the street and your mom said, oh, don’t pick that up, it’s dirty.

And you could literally smell the bronze scent of the coin in your hand. And that’s just an example of how we all learn very differently around money. Some of you will be very kinesthetic. You know, it’s about the feeling, it’s the intuition that you experience when somebody gives you 50 quid and says, go and spend that on yourself. You might be like, oh, I can’t spend that on myself. I’m gonna go and give it away to somebody else who needs it more than I do because of my deservingness around money. You know, it’s an all sensory participation. So I am super curious in, think about the practice that you’re in right now.

If you’re a financial planner or a professional listening to this, how can you bring this auditory, kinesthetic, visual aspect into your conversations with clients? Now you might be thinking, well, how do I know? How do I know if a client is kinesthetic or auditory or visual, all of these things? There are quizzes that you can do, but the most important way to do it and the easiest way to do it is to listen to their language. Now let me give you an example of what I mean by this. If a client says, I hear what you say, I hear what you’re saying, Adam, I need to invest this money to get a better return.

The word hear is giving you an insight that they’re auditory. If they say, oh, I can see that now. Yeah, I can see myself playing golf at the age of 65 or having three holidays rather than two. I can see that. You know, or they may start to describe that scene to you. You know, they’re gonna be quite visual. Often our experience shows us that it’s not necessarily a gender thing, like women are more visual or men are more visual, but we do seem to, from our own experience anyway, in our communities, a lot of women are very kinesthetic. They’re very feeling and intuition-based. Men can often be more logical and linear in their approach to money, but that’s not always the case.

And stubborn, yes, absolutely, absolutely. But don’t take these things for granted. Don’t make those assumptions based on who you have sitting in front of you. Explore this with your clients. Listen to their language. Replay those things back to them. You know, you asked me about listening. We can become a much better listener by being able to hold silence and space for as awkwardly long as possible before we can then just say to the client, this is what I heard you say, and repeat that back. Because for the client to hear what they said about money and their relationship to it back might be the first time that they’ve ever had a conversation about their feelings around money.

I’m curious though, because I’m a big fan of this as well. What happens when you have this experience, right? So if you understand their modality or their sensory acuity around how they feel about money or their emotions, as you said, what does that mean to the financial advisor? Why is it imperative that advisors can start doing this now? What is it gonna mean for them? Yeah, it’s a great question. And the word that comes up for me here is awareness. Because quite frankly, we are not expecting you to be financial therapists and sit them on a couch and, you know, oh God, that was a terrible memory you have of money.

And it may be suitable at times to have a really good relationship with a therapist or a counselor or someone, you know, in your little black books that you can refer clients to as and when necessary. But I actually believe as a financial planner or a financial professional, your job is to just bring awareness to these things. Because awareness is the most powerful stage of self-awareness that can unlock some of those thinking conversations or feeling conversations that are gonna help you to have much deeper, more meaningful conversations with clients. And they will remember that. They will remember the conversations because of how it makes them feel.

I think there is an opportunity here. We also agree, each Derek and I have very similar journeys to use and how we’re trying to influence the marketplace to get more meaningful, expand services to coaching. I’ve done a holistic life coaching. I also went to Tony Robbins 30 years ago and all of them that we learned literally what you’re talking about, but the application of it into our business has been lacking. I think people, advisors specifically are more willing to entertain now, expanding the services beyond the Excel-based mathematical, right? Yeah. But they don’t understand why it’s important, how to monetize it if this is a business, and whether the clients are even going to respond or look at them in that way.

And so they tend to be afraid of approaching this perspective of going into the uncharted territories of emotional discussions because you look at me as a technical professional, make a mathematical decision. Is this the best tax regime? Is this the best investment strategy? Is this the insurance cost-effectiveness? So I say this to you because I’d love to find a way to frame why this is imperative to add to your practice of financial services over the next 10 years. It’s key. I have a quick comment about why I think it may not be working. It’s interesting, Adam, yeah, we’re seen as these technicians, right, from the client’s perspective, but what about inside the profession?

This is where I think if you can help a financial professional to look at their own relationship with money first, start with self first, they’re going to experience a transformation 100%, undoubtedly, and they can use that experience to harbor better conversations with their clients, which is easy, right, because we are all selfish creatures. Our needs ultimately come first and should come first. The needs of the advisor should come first before the needs of their clients because it’s the old added saying, isn’t it, that you put your own oxygen mask on first before you look after anybody else. Totally. And actually, is there an opportunity to experience those shifts in your own complicated relationship with money?

And all of us have had experiences of over-saving or over-spending or over-hoarding or having arguments with our partners about money because we come from two completely different relationships and two completely different sets of influences on our own relationship with money. We’ve had conflicts, we’ve been through divorce, we’ve lost loved ones. We’ve all experienced these things in our lives, so let’s start there. The bottom line is that it influences our behavior and I think that’s what you’re getting at because it’s ultimately the behaviors that we choose, which leads to a wealthy lifestyle, especially financially or even a grateful one, right, so understanding what’s enough. But we don’t choose our relationship.

We don’t choose the behaviors. We don’t get to choose the behaviors. We don’t just wake up one day and say, I know, I’m gonna become a saver. It doesn’t, I mean, sure it can work for a short period of time, but what’s driving the behavior is the emotional response and the emotional response is based on the influences that we’ve had. It’s the core beliefs, it’s the unconscious biases, it’s the unconscious beliefs that we have carried from birth and actually there’s lots of evidence to show epigenetics shows us that it’s actually carried through more than seven generations. So we are behaving around money based on our ancestral patterns of what they learn and experienced around money.

Is there anything that you think needs to be heard, whether controversial or not, that the industry is not paying attention to? There’s a few areas that I feel like collectively and collaboratively we could come together to make this a much better place for us and for our clients. And the one interesting thread that combines everything together is wellbeing. And I really believe that financial wellbeing should be the starting point and not the goal. And so when we think about harboring an improved financial wellbeing for our clients, that’s not the goal, it’s the starting point. We can do that right now. And instead of talking about our future for our clients is let’s instead practice helping them to step into more gratitude, helping them to feel greater happiness now rather than projecting that happiness into the future which may never come.

And the way that we do that is that we stop relating our happiness to being dependent on certain things happening. We create a whole bunch of dependencies in life, don’t we? If I have more money, then I’ll do this. Once I’ve changed my jobs, then I’ll be happier. Once I eat less food, I’ll be more confident about my body. We create all this bucket of dependencies in life, things that we have to have in order to be happier. And therefore we just park all that distance, happiness into the future. And true fulfillment really, true wellbeing for me is about letting go of all of those conditions, all those dependencies, all of those reasons that we have to meet in order to be happy.

And I aim instead for let’s just create more of the feeling in the here and now in that present moment. Getting clients to keep gratitude diaries. I’m actually doing a video one this year. I grabbed my phone. I have a reminder on my phone at 10 past eight in the evening. And I do a 10 second video recording. Today, I am grateful for this. And it just gets the energy shifting around how we feel about ourselves because the relationship we have with money is really a mirror reflection of the relationship that we have with ourselves. Wow. So I heard like 40 mic drops in that presentation.

This is the third time I’ve listened to this now. And I keep coming up with more notes. I really encourage everybody to listen to that one again. Derek? Yeah, there’s just, I was thinking the same thing. I’ve got all these notes and these points I wanna make. And it’s almost like drinking from a fire hose. There’s just so much here. The overall takeaway though is actually simple. Money is emotional. Help our clients tap into that. Now there’s a lot of ways and we’ll get into the bullet points here in a second, but it really is. I love her perspective and take on this. And she’s coming at it from a very genuine place.

And it’s not just power suit, power tie, power windows profession anymore. We’re helping people do the most important things in their lives. And we just happen to help them do that with this thing we call money. Very interesting. Do you think that she’s actually answered the first question that I asked you in the beginning? Is holistic financial wellness legit? I don’t know how you could say she didn’t. I mean, a hundred percent, yes. It’s legit. And then some- Well, okay, so let’s do it. Let’s hear your list. I’m really curious to hear if you heard what I heard. So tell us your takeaways. So if you weren’t paying attention and now it’s the time to really think about what you can do, what are the takeaways or what are the insights that you heard?

Advisors listening, get out a yellow pad and write this down. Go. Please, or on your phone or something. I think one of the overall takeaways was that there are these positive shifts happening more to more behavioral finance. And you’re seeing large companies promote this. You’re seeing a lot more people actually get PhDs in this and do a lot of work around. So we know it’s happening. I liked her point about there typically has been a lot of shame on the client side to go speak with a financial professional. And I can see that from a tax perspective, even with an attorney, but definitely with the work that we do as financial advisors, because there’s no education.

A lot of us made mistakes. I’ve made financial mistakes. So now you feel bad about it. You’re shamed and you don’t want to go talk to someone because they’re going to make you feel terrible. Well, it’s not the truth. Most advisors don’t. If your advisor makes you feel terrible about a mistake, you go get a different advisor. I’ll tell you that right now. That’s true. They got to feel safe. Got to feel safe. But that doesn’t mean that financial advisors, this brings me to my next point, have to be therapists necessarily. Because the work we do is different than a financial coach, the work that Catherine does and so forth, but we can, and we do have this power to have these conversations with clients that help bring awareness, this emotional awareness to what’s really important to our clients.

And these conversations really help unlock how clients feel about their money. And that is super important. And she said that resonated with me. They will remember how you made them feel. And that’s not just having a nice cup of coffee at your awesome boardroom table in your brick and mortar office. That used to be odd to make you feel goes. Yeah, Adam, you and I both did that. No, it’s true. But there’s more to it that you get. I’ve had clients cry because, in a good way, in a good way, because of these things. I think it’s really, really important. This financial wellbeing should be a starting point.

I really like that. Help people feel more happiness and gratitude today, and not just at some future point. You’re going to just be miserable for 30 years, but trust me, when you retire in the future, you’re going to be wicked happy. No, man, make me feel happy today, too. Come on. Anyways, how does that jam with what you came up? Oh, I had a lot of the same ones because I think she just, she had, gosh, almost meme moments there where they could be snippets. And you can see where her coaching really comes out there because every sentence could be taken apart. I thought there was some really interesting things which she talked about advisors, right?

We do know, quote unquote, a lot more than our clients about money. We’ve been trained, we’ve spent time, we got experience, but that doesn’t make us good with money because we’re all tied to this emotional heritage that we either have accrued in our early days with money or what we saw other people experiencing, or maybe even our parents or even early generations. Although that was really interesting. And I can relate to that, right? Having grandparents that grew up, pulling the stamps off of unsent letters because they wanted to save the two cents and picking up a penny on the floor. That was more than good luck.

That was just good financial sense. And yet, choosing to put all their money in the bank and not earn any interest is, these are historical, we’ll call them heritage financial behaviors and emotions based upon fear that cause them to have certain behaviors that led to, of course, perpetuating the same outcome. And if we’re trying to hope to help our clients get more financially well, if we could say that, or maybe wealthy, perhaps we need to help them address the real emotions that are stopping the good behaviors that are gonna drive the positive outcome. And that’s why I think this is such an interesting aspect because whereas we tend to, I don’t wanna say debunk or laugh at traditionally the emotional attack of this problem of financial success or wellness, it really does go down to the basics.

And I think she did a great job framing that. I love the idea of the sensory perception of communicating the way that your clients do. I’ve been trained on this as well. I was really excited to hear her say this. In other words, when our clients saying, you know, I hear you or I see what you’re saying or that feels right to me and try to connect to them on a sensory level to let them know that you are experiencing what they are experiencing in a similar way. And that will feel connected, will build rapport and of course help them understand that you’re on the same page with them.

So I love a bunch of these things here. I love what you said also, financial wellbeing is a starting point. It’s not the goal. And if we can understand their emotional motivation, it’ll help them change. And the last thing she said was that money is a mirror of the relationship we have with ourselves. That was interesting. That got me a whole bunch of like, wow, I wonder if I understand what that means. But it’s something to contemplate on your drive home. Is money a mirror of the relationship we have with ourselves? In other words, where we choose to put our money, how we choose to save or hoard it, how we choose to invest in others or contribute it, how we tend to take care of other people before ourselves.

It’s a real interesting thing that money does offer a vantage into how our clients and ourselves tend to value what matters, right? There was a great quote many years ago that’s, of course, people compete over who said it. Don’t tell me what you care about. Show me your balance sheet. I’ll tell you what you care about, right? Yep, that’s exactly right. That’s really the point. I really hope that folks listening to this got a number of great takeaways that we did. There’s so much here, so much importance. Go back and listen a time or two if you have a moment because there are some things you can do to incorporate in your practice, whether it’s just better listening skills, changing your fact gathering process when you’re meeting with new clients, review meetings and listening.

There’s these little things you can do that can actually have a really powerful impact. So just awesome, awesome stuff. Catherine, thank you so much for joining us, especially from over the pond. We appreciate it. And everyone, please make sure you follow her on LinkedIn, Instagram. We’ll drop links to all of that. How do we wanna wrap this up today, Adam? Any other words of wisdom or bad dad jokes you wanna give us? I don’t have any of that stuff. All I have is contemplation in my mind of how I can do a better job, being a better listener and leaving awkward silence in between my statements just to allow people to contemplate and contribute.

How was that? I wanted to leave some awkward silence but you interrupted it. I was leaving it. That was my awkward silence. Doesn’t suit well on a podcast. No, it doesn’t. Derek, my friend, until the next time where we get to laugh together and of course learn together. Thanks so much for being part of this. Likewise, cheers brother. Thanks everybody for listening and till next time. Thank you for listening to Rethink, the financial advisor podcast with Holt and Notman. Be sure to subscribe now and join the ongoing conversation. The information covered and posted represents the views and opinions of the guest and does not necessarily represent the views or opinions of AssetMap or Connector.

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