Ep 71: Invest in conversations before technology featuring Derrick Kinney

Episode 71 of Rethink Financial Advice, co-hosted by Derek Notman, CFP® (Founder & CEO, Couplr AI) and H. Adam Holt, CFP® (Founder & CEO, Asset-Map). (37:54)

Episode 71 of Rethink Financial Advice, co-hosted by Derek Notman, CFP® (Founder & CEO, Couplr AI) and H. Adam Holt, CFP® (Founder & CEO, Asset-Map). Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or Acast.

Episode Summary

Derrick Kinney joins Adam Holt and Derek Notman to reverse the usual order of operations in practice building. Rather than asking what technology to buy, Kinney argues an advisor should first decide what conversations they want to be having, with which people, about which problems, and only then choose tools that amplify those conversations. The failure mode he describes is buying lead generation without being able to say what kind of lead you actually want. His diagnosis of why advisors struggle to connect is more pointed. Becoming an advisor involves study, repeated rejection, and considerable persistence, none of which teaches you that other people do not think the way you do. Holt closes on what he calls conversational financial planning, and the observation that the best technology facilitates the human exchange rather than substituting for it.

What this episode covers

• Deciding what conversations you want before deciding what technology to buy
• Why buying lead generation without a defined client profile tends to fail
• The assumption that other people think the way you do, and what it costs
• Saying something specific enough that a target client feels understood
• Conversational financial planning, and technology that supports rather than replaces the exchange

Full Transcript

Machine-generated transcript of this episode.

Welcome to Rethink, the financial advisor podcast. My name is Adam Holtz. And this is Derek Notman. We are your hosts, both veteran advisors and FinTech CEOs who challenge the status quo, question everything and have fun doing it. Hear honest commentary on the challenges facing advisors today and be part of a community where we can all rethink the profession. Now on to our episode. Derek, what should advisors be investing in to help acquire new clients? Love that question. I think it’s top of mind for most advisors, right? Yeah, especially with all the technology that’s out there. I mean, doesn’t it feel like drinking from a fire hose most of the time?

Oh yeah, and everybody wants organic growth, right? That’s the new thing. Organic growth is the new thing. That’s the new black, I guess you call it or whatever. I don’t know. I’m not a fashion person. I want my revenue in the black. Yeah, there you go. It is an interesting question. I would say that obviously there’s a number of things we can invest in, but I would ask advisors to maybe take pause and stand back a second and say, what type of conversations am I having? What type of relationships do I want with the clients that I have or intend to bring onto my firm?

And getting more clear about that. What problems am I solving? What people do I like to work with? You know, I’m more of a human level. And then what tech can I go get invest in to help me amplify the conversations and relationships that I’m looking for? So I think a lot of times what happens is tech comes first. Yeah. Like, oh, I need lead gen. Okay, why do I need lead gen? What kind of lead gen do I want? Oh, I don’t know. I just want lead gen. And then they go by lead gen, right? Hold on a second here. I get it. It’s important.

You want more clients, but what kind of clients do you want? Like you got to go deeper than that because tech by itself, as we all know, is not the magic silver bullet. It could be actually detrimental if you don’t do it right. So I would say, like, if you’re going to invest in something first, what type of relationships and conversations do you want to be having with what types of customers? And then from there, use that to drive your technology investment. You know, that’s funny. I didn’t really think about it until you came back with that response, but it’s true. Everybody is jumping right to the idea that I need to go acquire all the tech.

Again, I need to workflow, automate, animate, whatever. Anything but be human. In other words, that the tech itself has got so much leverage in it that no matter what I do, if I just add it, I’m going to be great. But the reality is, is that what we’re really saying is that the conversations I want to have with clients, and maybe the conversation I need to have with myself is all about intentionality. It’s all about meaning, connectivity. And then you should use the tech that’s going to help you have more of those conversations. Because I can tell you one thing, after being in the business for 20 some years, I realized there are certain clients I really like to work with and certain clients I didn’t really want to work with.

And I found myself being more choiceful as to who I would take on. But when my coach told me, decide who you really want to work with, be with, who you are, who you want to attract, guess what? When I was more intentional, I started having better conversations and everything was a lot easier, wasn’t it? Did you have that? A lot easier. Well, you want to be there. We’re human beings. We want to be with other humans like us that we like. Yeah. We have for millions of years. So don’t try to replace that, lean into that and find tech that helps you do that.

Yeah. So this came up as a conversation we had with Derek Kinney, who’s actually also a recovering advisor, just like us. He is, yeah. Because we kind of like figured it out and then we’re like, oh my gosh, there’s something more. So Derek, if you’re not familiar with him, other Derek, is Derek is an ex advisor. He’s, I would say he’s almost a motivational speaker, but he’s a speaker. He’s an author. He’s written the bestselling books. He’s been on the news. He’s been on media and his kind of different take has been all about the conversation and the power of the language you use and the words that we use.

And I encourage you guys to check out some of the work that he’s doing. It’s some real altruistic stuff for helping children, helping teens. But Derek and I had a really interesting conversation, which we know you’ll find something here, Derek. Yeah, really great conversation. I think he’s got like six kids or something like that. Definite rebel dad. So let’s jump in and see what he has to say. Well, thank you Derek Kinney for joining us today. We’re excited to have you on Rethink Podcast. Do us a favor, give us an idea. What’s your unique perspective of the advice market today? Yeah, well, Adam, Derek, great to be with you today.

I know you’re very selective on your guests. I kind of squeaked right in there, so I appreciate that. You know, one of the core beliefs I’ve got is that especially in an age of technology, when you’re attracted to that, you need to be even more attractive to the prospects who have problems that you can solve. And I’m a big believer in how do we convert conversations into clients? And part of that is knowing what part of my job is visible to the prospect and the client versus what’s invisible. And I need to make sure that by adding the most value, I need to be the most visible present advisor.

That’s how I’m gonna stand out. Gosh, that’s a really challenging thing to do though. So how are you finding that the advisors that you interact with or coach or speak to, how are they sharing their challenges around that topic specifically? Well, right now, the temptation is so great. , okay? And the purpose of that is because my most productive, highest dollar use of my time is eight to 10 in the morning. But I find if I’m being candid here, I can get sucked into how’s my LinkedIn posts doing? What are people talking about on social media? And literally within about five minutes of waking up, it determines how I’m feeling about the day.

And I’ve done myself a disservice and everybody else a disservice. So my goal is to kind of do a little phone fast the month of February during those two hours. m. to say something to look forward to. But I realized if I’m thinking about that with my phone, how many advisors believe that I’ve got to have the best tech stack and I’ve got to have the fastest computer, the best AI prompts. And if I don’t have that, then I will not attract the ideal clients I want. I would say to them, that is just not right. And if I could just tell a quick story, let’s say that you were in a social setting and you were kind of mingling around the room and you met a gentleman and you asked him, what do you do for a living?

And he said, well, I’m a personal trainer. And he said, I help people get in shape and eat better so they can live a better life. And you kind of ask them some more questions and so forth and don’t think much about it. Well, later on in the evening, you meet a woman and you ask her the same question. Hey, what do you do for a living? And she says, well, you know how busy executives want to eat better and look better, but they’re so busy growing their business and they want to provide for their families. I create a customized game plan for busy people so they can be the cool grandparent that’s fit enough to chase their grandkids across the floor and live the life they’ve always wanted.

You say, wow. So a week goes by and you’re talking to your wife and you say, you know what? I really feel like I need to get in shape. Which of those two trainers will typically immediately come to mind? Good point. Second one, I’m guessing. I’m still stuck on the story of the second person. So what did the first person do? Yeah, so exactly. And so what that means is that when we are in these social settings that we’re in every single day, the moment someone drops on you what you do for a living, you’ve got a choice to make. Either you can cause their eyes to glaze over faster than a Krispy Kreme donut and they literally go comatose in front of you when you say, I’m a financial advisor or you can introduce them and engage them in what I call a relatable problem.

So for example, I might say, you know, Derek, you know how people worry about running out of money in retirement? And you’re like, well, yeah. Well, we have a three-step plan that provides a way for them to not worry about money and have the confidence they want to have financial freedom. We specialize in retirement income planning. Then I might tell a story about a client that came in who felt nervous and worried and how we help them create confidence. Well, what that does is in that entire dialogue of maybe 20 to 30 words, did I mention at all that I was a financial advisor? No.

And the whole point is all of us, whether we like it or not, and it’s not fair, but it’s reality, people have a mental checklist of what they choose to burn their brain cells on. So for example, if I say, I’m a financial advisor, automatically there’s this mental checklist of you sell stuff. My friend lost money with a financial advisor, you buy stocks, you sell insurance, you’re gonna sell me a bunch of stuff I don’t need. And I didn’t even say anything at all, but you’re judging me based on your preconceived notion. And the way to fight that clearly is to connect with your prospects in their financial pain with a relatable problem.

So for example, if you work with teachers, you know how teachers struggle with working hard for 20 years and they’ve gotta make that one pension decision, they don’t wanna screw it up? Yeah, well see you say something that immediately connects with your target market where they think this person gets me and they understand me. So if I’m hearing you correctly, the missing opportunity maybe like for our next question here is advisors that are not paying attention to and doing just what you said. Are you seeing that a lot with the advisors that you’re working with? Is this a challenge that they’re having? And why are they not addressing it?

Or are they and just not doing it the correct way? Well, I think it’s a couple different things. First of all, think about all the pain that a financial advisor goes through to become a financial advisor. They study, they have to reach out to people, they’re rejected a lot, they face a lot of nos. I mean, there’s a lot of pieces. And I think as an advisor, it’s the most noble profession available. But I don’t think people are equipped to realize how other people are thinking. People think, they think how I think. And that’s bad thinking. The reality is understanding this is how other people are thinking.

For example, if I’m driving down the highway and I’m looking at billboards, I might see 20 billboards on the way from here to my office. But I’m mentally registering only the ones that I immediately have a connection with. The rest of them are just wasted money. And so what I would tell people is right now, especially in the age of AI and high tech, thinking that AI is going to be the magnet that attracts our ideal prospects to us, I think is foolish. But every day, our neighbors, the people we care about, the parents at our kids’ school, at our church, at Rotary, wherever they are, those people figuratively are all carrying this roller bag luggage behind them.

And inside that roller bag luggage are their painful financial problems that they’ve accumulated their whole life. And you meet some people who can tell they’ve had a lot of problems in their life. And what they’re looking for subconsciously I believe is someone who can give them a lighter set of luggage. And that’s what our job as financial advisors is. And I think we’re doing people a disservice when we say I’m a financial advisor or we’re causing prospects to try to figure out how we can help them. If we do that, it causes them to have to burn too many brain cells and they simply check out.

But if we can say to them in a relatable way, you know how, and you connect with a problem you know that person has, it opens a doorway where you could help them solve that problem. And I feel like that’s what we owe more to the American public today. This is a great point. I mean, gosh, it feels like what we talk about all the time and the challenges we’re trying to address with that Asimap is, can you just start the conversation? You have a conversation about that heavy luggage in the inventory that’s typically overwhelming them or maybe even intimidating them. They don’t know how to start digging in and cleaning out.

So that’s a great point. So what kind of action steps would you recommend for our audience to start thinking about now or for us to start doing? Well, let’s take this now inside of the office. So let’s say you’ve intrigued the person enough and they’re meeting with you now. And I like to call these visits and not meetings. Typically meetings are with your proctologist. Visits are with someone you care about and you enjoy. So we’re gonna have a visit together. So now you’re in the office having a visit and so many advisors and we’re wired this way to solve problems. We talked about the relatable problem and once they’re in the office, we wanna get in there and impress people with our knowledge and solve stuff.

And that could be probably the biggest mistake. I like to say, agitate, don’t solve problems in the first visit. And that goal is finding out from them what is the greatest service I could provide for you. Number one question, because you want them to tell you how you can help me have a better life. And even asking 12 months from now if we were having coffee together, what needs to happen for you to say, I’m sure glad I hired Derek today. And in their words, they’re telling you what the win looks like. And so what I would often tell people in our visits is is that’s something you’d like my help with.

What would happen if you don’t solve that problem? What is it that you want to happen with that problem? And so they’re telling you, basically almost begging you, I want you to solve this. And I finally wrap up and say, is that something you’d like my help with? Because what I believe is, and this may sound controversial, no fee, no me. No fee, no me. I can’t be the best advisor you need until you pay me to be that advisor. Once you put your money into me, I become very, very knowledgeable and smart. And I become very much of a problem solver for you. Because I don’t want to just solve your problem today.

I’m solving your problem the rest of your life and possibly your kids and the next generation. So if I solve too much now, I’m actually doing you a disservice and I can’t allow that to happen. No fee, no me, I like that. So it sounds a bit like the action, some of the action steps you’re suggesting to advisors is to take a step back and reevaluate what is the dialogue that you’re having with the potential customer, with the client, right? What question, are you listening more than talking? What questions are you asking? How are you explaining things? It’s easy to get very technical, whip out the prospectus, right?

For the 40 page illustration. That’s not going to solve the problem. So if I’m hearing you correct, that’s what it sounds like. Yeah, and to your point, what I would say is our work as advisors, and I say this with a heart full of compassion and empathy, we are all commodities. We are all commoditized. In the eyes of the prospect, we appear to be and sound like everybody else. The reason we are that way is because of how we typically dialogue with prospects. We typically say things like based on our product and services features and benefits, this investment, this annuity, this insurance, this fee based account, whatever it is, well suddenly now you place yourself in a comparison game with everybody else based on features and benefits and fees.

But instead, I like to call that renting your success. If you want to own your success, you want to own a problem that keeps your ideal prospects awake at night. And what I would tell people to do a simple exercise is ask yourself of the five most recent clients that you brought on, what was the problem that they asked you to help them solve? And then I would ask you to look at your five favorite clients, the names on your calendar, that when you see their names, you get excited like, oh my gosh, Derek’s coming in, Adam’s coming in, this is going to be great.

And they take every word of your advice as goal. What problems did you help them solve? I call that your focus group. So there’s no need to do advertising or big things. Just ask your clients. And once you know what that pattern is of the problem you’re solving, you have a question to ask, do I like solving that problem because you’ve clearly shown people will pay you to solve that problem, or is there a different problem? But the key is you have to own a problem if I believe you’re going to achieve the success and really enjoy the life you want as a financial advisor.

It’s like another way of saying, figuring out your niche. I’ve never heard it that way before. Yeah, I like the word niche, but what I would distinguish that is, let’s say someone listening likes to work with doctors. Well, if I’m in a room of doctors, I might say, well, we specialize in working with doctors. Well, there is a certain level of attraction there that says, okay, this person works with doctors. But if I then say, we specialize in working with doctors who worry about spoiling their kids because they didn’t work as hard as I did going to school, we’ll see that little extra piece there says, yes, that’s exactly the pain point.

It’d be, for example, if we weren’t a group of parents, other dads, and another dad said to you, do you ever feel like when you talk to your daughter, it goes in one ear and out the other, and you’re like, oh my gosh, yes, it’s immediate. And so the goal of all of this is how do you find a problem that is immediately relatable? People are like, oh my gosh, this person understands exactly what I’m talking about. That’s really the golden key. And you’re saying that the best way to identify that problem, the thing that you help people fix is by looking at the clients you’ve already brought in, the ones that are your favorites, the one that you’ve done the best work with, and then go find more people like that.

Yeah, and what I would say is too, is I’m a big believer in recent and relevant. So for example, you wanna look at my past five clients and ask, okay, what problems am I currently solving? Because sometimes we kind of get off track a little bit and we’re not in the same lane that we started off in, but what that does is it validates. And so what I would ask people to do is find that problem, but also even more importantly, identify if you can, what emotion did they feel once you helped them solve that problem? Did they feel confident? Did they feel at peace?

Did they feel empowered? And those are words that people can relate to because what I believe is words equal wealth. And the right word spoken at the right time said to the right person describing the right problem can lead to great profits. Boy, that was a really interesting conversation. And how often do we get two Derek’s spouting off at the same time, huh? I was gonna mention that just because we had two Derek’s, that was gonna be the most amazing part of the whole thing. Yeah, so anyone listening, you can go away now because you got the most out of it already. I didn’t even know who was speaking.

I said, Derek, Derek, it was very confusing to me. I hope you guys listened, understood what was going on. I need a nickname. You gotta come up with a nickname for me because I can’t come up with my own nickname. You can’t be that guy. I tell you what, why don’t we do a social poll? Everybody submit on LinkedIn what they think we should nickname Derek Notman. Right. I can only imagine. Well, it’s funny because if you know Craig Iskowitz, remember what he called us? What did he call us? He called us not Holtman. Yeah, so stupid, so stupid. I guess that makes sense. Anyway, it was funnier, I think.

It was in the moment, yeah. Well, what did Derek with two R’s say that resonated with you? Well, right off the bat, I really liked his positioning around, hey, don’t obsess over technology. Yeah, it’s important, but there’s other stuff going on here that’s deeper. Like we refer to as humanity. I think that really was interesting. And even at a rebel dad’s experience, like he talked about, he doesn’t have his phone on until 10 in the morning so he can be more focused on being present and doing what’s, we talked about the digital detox when we were on Necker with the whole rebel group. And there’s a lot of value to that.

I think that there’s been this slippery tech slope and we’re overwhelmed now drinking from a fire hose with it. So I really liked that. Push back on that a little bit and let’s focus on the human side of what we do, which is when you hear it like that, it’s like, duh, we should. Yeah, I think that was well said. Duh is the perfect non-tech way to describe it. Duh. Duh. Or like, bro. Bro. That’s true. Bro. That’s what I’m gonna, I’m coming up with nicknames as we speak. You know, it’s funny because I forgot that he brought up the digital detox in the morning.

I was thinking while he was saying that, could I actually do that? Could I actually not open my emails? Forget my social media. I don’t really go to social media in the morning. I go right to calendar. What time? From you waking up till turning it on and how many minutes go by? 30. I generally look at the calendar very first thing. I don’t look at text, social, any of that stuff. Are you still in bed? I could be still in bed because the alarm clock is going off. It’s on my phone. The alarm’s on the phone and I gotta wake up the whole family.

So I get up, nobody else is getting up. I get up with the alarm and I look at my calendar to figure out what I’m gonna wear. Oh, okay. I gotta know where I’m gonna eat today. Am I gonna get any lunch or is it back to back all day long? That’s what I have to figure out. Okay, so I get it, but so what, okay. We don’t need to tell everyone you’re day by day, minute by minute. Well, if it helps me, let’s do it. So let me show you what I do because I used to do exactly what you do. What do you do?

I don’t anymore now. So we get up and phone is off and I have a cup of coffee and spend usually half hour to an hour reading a book and then typically go on a walk to the beach with the dogs and then come back and turn everything on. They’re literally off. Off. When you say on, you mean it’s actually off. Yeah, like I actually turn everything off and it stays in my office. So it is, yeah. So we don’t use an alarm clock unless we gotta get up early for a flight and just naturally get up early. Right. And if we do need an alarm clock, it’s with an actual alarm clock on my nightstand.

And it worked, there was FOMO initially, but dude, I’m not an ER doc. Yeah, that’s true. Most advisors aren’t. So you don’t need to be that connected really. That’s amazing. I have taken for granted the fact that I have everyone on the phone. So I do have do not disturb time on my phone. So it won’t ring or bing or make any noises during hours like 10 at night till seven in the morning, unless it’s a family member. But all this, this is a really interesting question because what’s the real benefit for the person listening to this right now to contemplate a digital detox before, let’s say 10, like Derek Kinney said, or turn off the phone like Derek Notman said, or not do that like Adam Holt does.

And is there a real benefit in it that we can experiment with individually? I think so. I mean, as Kinney said, he finds that his most productive hours in the day are eight to 10. So he doesn’t want to be distracted. And I find that I have like this additional level of anxiety if I’ve got my phone on and it’s just, it’s a distraction because it’s really easy. Even if I’m on do not disturb, how easy it is to like, oh, I’m just checking it in real quick. Oh, I’m gonna just check my email. And next thing you know, like you’re stuck in that instead of being present and being present could be with your kid.

It could be working on a project for your business that you should be focused on. I think so. I mean, there’s different ways to skin this cat, but- Okay, got it. Well, let’s talk about the second thing he brought up which was this idea that everybody’s getting commoditized and you have to kind of change over your elevator pitch has to change. Right? Remember what he talked about? He talked about this, like I’m an advisor or I’m a blank that does this for people just like you. I had to laugh at that. Cause how many times have you and myself both been in a situation earlier in our careers where we were asked, oh, what do you do?

Oh, I’m a financial advisor. And then you could literally see the person like eyes glass over there. Oh, I gotta go get a drink or oh, I really had to go talk to that person. And then you’re just by yourself, right? I don’t know. Maybe that’s what happened to you. But it totally did. I hate it. I hate it. Like do not ask me what I do cause I don’t wanna have to tell you cause I just feel like I’m schmuck. Well, you weren’t in the lead gen business back then. I mean, I gotta believe we were all trying to get business from wherever we could, but we were hoping that that one statement would inspire somebody to be like, I actually need a financial planner right now.

Do you know any like, or you’d get the person who wants to ask you about should you buy Tesla or whatever or Apple, right? You’d get that person who wants to just pontificate. I’d try to stay away from those people. But what I think he was driving at here is that we are commoditized. And so how do we differentiate? We differentiate with our personal stories, our personalities, our shared commonalities, our shared experiences, similar problems we might’ve had. Like he talked about like, does your daughter not listen to you when you talk to her in one out year? That’s something that we can resonate. So how do you connect with, how do you connect a client and an advisor on those deeper levels instead of just saying, hey, I’m a financial advisor and I sell life insurance.

And so it really resonates with me because that’s what we’re doing at Coupler. We’re using tech to actually do more humanity to find that human connection. Yeah. And that’s what people want. It’s what people are looking for. Like he shared, if you’re at a cocktail party and you’re having an experience or a conversation where you’re talking about a problem and solving it and having the shared experience. Totally. Everything just like you’ve built rapport and trust more quickly, you feel better. And so that totally resonates with me and it works. I mean, that’s what we’re seeing at Coupler too. That’s what people want. Yeah, well, that’s true.

People wanna talk about the stories. I mean, if you have something that’s a commonality, some interest, you’ve got plenty to talk about. There’s nothing to do with finances. I mean, the real interesting thing of using that, his phraseology as a lead gen opportunity. It’s actually, I did something very similar in the old days. And of course, we always talk about this, like when you’re at the networking event or at some dinner party, I haven’t been to either one of those things in 20 years, it feels like. I know, right. Do they actually still exist for the, there’s not the format for having that kind of engagement.

Maybe you go to like a Superbowl party or you’re going to your buddy’s like, or your daughter’s recital and there’s some thing afterwards, but you really don’t, you don’t really get the opportunity to just connect with strangers all the time, or maybe you do it through church or your religious organization. For me, I used to say, when people didn’t ask me what I do, Derek, you know what I would say? When something happened that could relate to a story, I would say, you know what, actually my client was just dealing with that. He was just telling me how he just wasted a whole bunch of money in this thing and we had to unwind the whole thing and blah, blah, blah, blah.

And then people would say, well, wait, what do you do? And that would give me the entree to actually say, but of course I’m planting the seeds very strategically. People usually responded to a story that’s relatable. And I think that’s the takeaway of what Derek’s saying, is that going back to the humanity as opposed to just the details is something I think we’re all seeking. It’s the reason why reality television show is the most popular type of television series there is out there. And I think it’s the reason why Instagram is way more popular than, you know, the news even. I think people wanna see it, people.

It’s like an empathy thing, right? We are wired as human beings to seek others like that, understand how we’re feeling about something. Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s so true. So further down that vein though is like, what do people really want? I think there’s gotta be this balance between tech and conversation, but financial planning, technology, like that is important. People do want it. And I think the best tech is probably gonna be the one that helps facilitate both. Yeah. I think that really resonated with me big time, right? I feel like that’s all I talk about. In many ways, AssetMap has been trying to create a new category which has existed forever called conversational financial planning.

I mean, well before we had all this great tech, we had a yellow pad, we had a pen and a calculator and we talked, right? You drew it out. You actually drew it out, right? Right, we educated people. And then we would go back in office and we ran a bunch of analysis and then we would tell the client what the analysis said. Now we present the analysis as if that is what the client is asking for, right? Here’s what the morning star looked like. Here’s what the financial plan looks like. You want a 40 page report, here you go. Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much.

Well, what people really want is they want to know that the work has been done, right? The analysis has been done. The credibility is there. That the recommendation you’re making actually is based on something. So I think for us at AssetMap, we’ve been really, really focusing on conversational planning and how do you just facilitate the conversation with this conversation piece called the AssetMap, which is just a picture of your very personal life and what makes sense and what doesn’t and what’s intentional, what’s at hazard. So I think really making it a storytelling experience is really the way that we keep humanity in our business today.

And I think Derek’s got it right. I mean, even to the point where he mentioned about his book, which we recorded off air, his book written about how the fact that the perception is that people with money are somehow evil or fit through the eye of the needle type of question. And that’s not the truth at all, which I thought was another interesting topic to talk about if we had time. But it’s true. People really want to talk about the meaning of the money, not the money itself. That’s exactly right. And I like how he advocates a little bit for the true value of what advisors do with his whole comment, no fee, no me.

Yeah. You want my help? We’ve established a relationship. We’ve had a conversation. You feel like you trust me now. You want my help? Like you’re gonna have to pay for it. Like I am worth something. Man, I can’t tell how many times as an advisor I did so much stuff for free just to try to get the client when this would give up opportunities. And I think a lot of advisors do that, unfortunately. And you are worth something and you should get paid for your time, as long as you’re not just schlepping X, Y, Z to solve every problem. I know, yeah. I feel that this one too.

I always gave way more than I ever charged. Even if I didn’t charge, I just kept giving, giving, giving. And I did believe that my mindset is that it would come back. And my experience is that it did come back tenfold. But it’s true. I think in today’s world, people are so used to getting everything for free on the internet or GPT or Google or I’ll just watch a YouTube video at this point. I always go back to your, you said this years ago, when the price cost of being wrong is high, get a human involved. Yeah. Then, you know, it’s worth paying that human.

Cause then you could blame someone else. Yeah. Well, sorry, honey, it’s not my fault. It was the advisor’s fault, right? That’s right. And I have the receipts to prove it. Yeah, right. Yeah, see? Now look how expensive that decision was. That’s pretty funny. So what are the things that advisors can do, Derek? What are the takeaways that people should put into motion right away? Well, I don’t know if I like the term elevator pitch, but I think that there’s a better way that advisors can frame initial conversations with potential customers, potential clients and share stories, share problems that you’ve solved, things of that nature where it’s relatable instead of, oh, I’d sell life insurance to doctors.

That’s really boring. Like, I don’t care how many other people do the same thing, make it much more relatable to me. And those are just subtle little changes, things you can add into a conversation. And as Derek said, listen more. You gotta listen. You gotta give them that open forum to say what’s on their mind. Otherwise it’s never gonna really materialize into a great relationship. Yeah, those are great points. I think something that the doctors, I kept thinking to myself, what would be a better doctor’s pitch today? And I was thinking to myself, you know how doctors spend an enormous amount of time and energy and debt to get to a place and then make more money than they’ve ever made in their life and don’t know where it is?

I work with those types of doctors to help them find it. You’re gonna see a light bulb go off and a whole bunch of doctors when they hear that, right? Like, oh shit. Right, relatable rapport and then give them a vision forward of how you’re actually helping people. I think that’s a great framework. If you take it apart, listen to it again, you can probably find your own phrase, maybe two or three for areas that you really wanna focus on. I thought that was really great, the recency bias of who have you worked with recently. So I think that makes a lot of sense. So go back.

Definitely. Look at the last five clients that came to you if you, assuming you still want more clients like that and then find out what that commonality was, what that story is. I don’t think it begs a question. You can probably ask them. Ask them, what was the emotion that I met? I’m just going back and trying to figure out how to- They’ll appreciate that more because it shows you wanna understand it. It’ll make you a better advisor for them moving forward and also help you crystallize who you actually wanna help and do something with. Well, you might be able to ask an introduction. Well, who else looks like that?

Who else could relate to that challenge? Who else would appreciate being helped the way that I helped you? I think that’s really good. I think for me also, the takeaways I think are that are really important as a reminder that in this tech evolution and this next wave of AI is that advisors really need to double down on relationship currency. The only way I can figure out that we’re gonna do that is either by giving them enormous performance value which I think is becoming harder or harder or just giving them fantastic trust, communication. You know the client intimately. I think you gotta prove that. So you need a way to have conversations about all the stuff they’re doing holistically.

I encourage you obviously to look at AssetMap or anything that helps you frame a conversation because that’s important. And certainly from the standpoint of lead generation and making sure you’re getting like-minded clients. You’re top of funnel. Right, exactly. Yeah. Who are you bringing in? And does it match up 100%? You’re right. Absolutely. AI. I know I’m right and we know it works. We’ve seen it work. Most people just don’t know and we’re all overwhelmed. So change management we understand is challenging. Focus on one thing and just put that into motion. Then do the next thing, then do the next thing. One step in front of the other.

With that, I thought that was really interesting. Thank you, Derek Kinney for joining our podcast. You can see all the notes and links to his book as well as some other resources to find out if he can be impactful in your journey. Derek, I appreciate our time as always. It was good seeing you, buddy. And everyone listening, thank you for your time. Give us a like, give us a recommendation or review or whatever they do on podcasts these days. I don’t know. I don’t know. With those youngins. The people who open their phone before the problem. For you digital folks, send me a snail mail.

I want someone to send me an actual letter. What is that? Yeah, what is that? Where do you buy stamps today? I don’t even know. Very cool. All right, my friend. We’ll see you at the next one. See you later, buddy. Thank you for listening to Rethink, the financial advisor podcast with Holt and Notman. Be sure to subscribe now and join the ongoing conversation. The information covered and posted represents the views and opinions of the guest and does not necessarily represent the views or opinions of AssetMap or Connector. The content has been made available for informational and educational purposes only.